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Old 28-07-2009, 19:57   #61
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Originally Posted by S/V Illusion View Post
Although the effect of climate change, both in terms of temp and acidification, are self-evident to anyone with an open mind, some seemingly intelligent folks simply won't look objectively at the overwhelming body of evidence. unfortunately, it is those among us who are so limited that serve only to delay timely action.
If you don't want to recognize the obvious, please get out of the way for the sake of the rest of us.
What kind of mileage does that JAG get?
Does it run on electricity or biofuels?
Do You have solar panels on YOUR ROOF?
Wind Generators over YOUR GARAGE?
On Your Boat?

the word hypocrite comes to mind?
I'm DOING something about "climate change"(while getting GR8 paychecks to do so too, I might add)...since You're so Obviously smart and (apparently smarter than lowly me) "concerned", what are YOU doing to "reduce YOUR Carbon Footprint"(in that gas guzzling jag)?
how's it feel getting busted?
That's ok, You can clear Your concience by shopping at West Marine, buying those carbon credits, and feeling good about the money You wasted winding up in ALGORE's pocket, with a few cents even directed MY way...loving Your attitude(& car, seriously, I like it).
-Mick
(dammit man, this is FUN! )
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:00   #62
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statistic?

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Why the analogy? because volcanoes, each year emit more "greenhouse gases" and toxic gases(to human and most other life) EACH Year than Man has in the last century. Think about that statistic.
Are you making this up as you go along, Captain?
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:01   #63
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Angry surely You jest?

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Hear! Hear!
There, There!
Now calm down and know they will use Your OWN GUILT against You soon enough, and I can hardly wait...we just bought land a solar FARM is gonna go on....man how I love the folks lining up to throw money at their own demise, this IS GR8!

When you need to sell that dive boat, look me up, fair enough?
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:03   #64
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Going Off Half-Cocked

There are data, but much of it is contradictory, and nothing is conclusive. If you accept that the globe is warming (instead of heading into another ice age, for which we're due) then you must separate the natural causes (including underwater volcanic vents spewing C02, as has been mentioned) and the fact that the luminosity of our middle-aged sun is increasing every year (there's your Mars warming), from what you think might be anthropogenic effects.

Complicating matters further, water vapor is a much more abundant greenhouse gas than CO2, and is responsible for more greenhouse effect. Combine that with increasing sun luminosity, and you have a self-reinforcing cycle within which anthropogenic CO2 (remember, the anthropogenic CO2 is only a fraction of released CO2) seems a relatively minor player.

And we all know that long-term climate is cyclic, right? Data from the last 50 years, even if it shows spikes on AlGore's PowerPoint slides, really doesn't provide the breadth that is necessary to understand this phenomenon (if it actually is a phenomenon) in any depth at all, not to mention embarking on a course of action that, considering all factors involved, must be drastic in the extreme to avoid the Day After Tomorrow. (Cutting carbon emissons by 80%? Can anyone tell me what that will do to the economies of all developed nations? Developing nations?

The bottom line is it's much more complicated than anyone tells you, and until we can due a better job of sorting through the conflicting data, establish rock-solid trends, and are able to accurately connect causes to each of the several symptoms, i.e., until we understand this much, much better than we currently do, the last thing we need to do is jump on an alarmist bandwagon.

I'm not saying ignore it; I'm saying let's understand it first. Remain sober-minded, open-minded, even being concerned is a fine posture; but please be skeptical of emotional arguments.

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Old 28-07-2009, 20:07   #65
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When carbon dioxide mixes with seawater, carbonic acid is created (C02 + H20 = H2CO3). This reaction releases hydrogen atoms which elevate the "normal" level of the ocean's acidity (pH 8.06). This reaction doesn't happen because democrats control both houses of congress or because liberals control the world's universities, despite what Rush Limbaugh might tell you.

It's just chemistry. The higher the level of carbon dioxide in solution, the higher the acidity.
Gentlemen/Ladies

One of the more intellectual (Gasp, does that mean Liberal?) statements here. Can we not put aside most of this crap despite our politics?

DON"T PUT **** INTO OUR ENVIRONMENT!

There. Debate that.
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:10   #66
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Thumbs up ANOTHER HOUSE WHERE the "Lights Are On"

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Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Ah--actually, the US signed the Protocol on November 12, 1998 (but has yet to ratify it). As for China--while it did sign and ratify the Protocol, it has agreed to no limitations based on the argument that it's per capita pollution levels are so low (although its overall levels are staggering) that it has no obligation to do so.

As for Randy Repass, frankly his note, which we also received, is nothing more than an effort to jump on the "Green" band wagon which is the social movement de jour. (GE really started the ball rolling with that..) Frankly, it's nothing more than pandering in my view.

FWIW...
GE....let's think about "them"...why would General Electric Hop on the Band Wagon of "Global Warming"?
simple folks...guess who the second largest distributor of (foreign made in some of the most polluting plants this side of the skunk works) SOLAR PANELS in this country, on top of "energy Star" rated "everything", in this country...betcha that almost none of You knew that energy efficient tanked water heaters in the MOST efficient model vs. LEAST efficient model save you a couple dollars a YEAR (apples to apples) difference? Yet You'll spend HUNDREDS(& hundreds) more for the "energy star" rated model?
Obviously others see through the charade & know when to call "BS".
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:16   #67
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Quote:
Obviously others see through the charade & know when to call "BS".
Hey Mick when you take your boat name seriously:


Schadenfreude - Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/, German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏ̯də]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

I don't want to imagine where you come from.
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:21   #68
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Why must CO2 be the culprit of all that is bad in the environment? The dead zone that someone mentioned in the Gulf of Mexico and implied was CO2 related is in fact caused by farm runoff from the Mississippi River. Also, are we to ignore any and all effects of fertilizer, sewage, and other chemical runoff as a major, if not the major cause of coral reef degradation? I just don't see how "we" can can damn CO2 as the root of all evil while completely ignoring the many, many other plausible explanations for many of the world's perceived and real problems.
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:22   #69
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My "delusional" world view is based on the simple fact that I refuse to beleive that Man, us, Human Beings have the POWER to ALTER the Earth as we've known it, for ever. It's ludicrous. How long have WE as homo sapiens been here? 5000-10000-15k years? & the earth is HOW OLD? & it's been thru HOW MANY ICE AGES before we came along? & How MANY "hot times"? I'm a pragmatist, and logic based. HOW MANY of these "Global WARMING Preaching proctologists(no offense to real MD's in the field) Have stated that the POLES MELTING WILL RAISE OUR SEA LEVELS...(Seen the idiotic MAPS?) and that we're all gonna DROWN....C'mon Gord., You probably saw "it could happen tomorrow" too and bought the whole line of crap just like all the rest of the idiots who never took PHYSICS in HS. Here's the PROBLEM with their "theorm"....they never took PHYSICS! I give You the most mere and minor DEBUNKING of "global Warming & "Climate Change" that I can:
1-Fill a glass 3/4ths full with ice
2-Add Water
3-MARK the Level where the water & Ice combined come to in glass
4-Let the ICE MELT & Come Back afterward.
5-Tell me where the water level is?
Gord, it went DOWN, as ICE takes up MORE "space" & displaces more in a frozen form than WATER Does (& no, Salinity DOESN'T Affect the model)
ERGO, IF the POLAR ICE CAPS MELTED TOMORROW....guess what...no tidal waves, no "water world", rather the sea levels would DECLINE WORLD WIDE...based on real PHYSICS & SCIENCE.
So how smart do You feel those "renowned" scientists preaching 3/4ths of Florida all being under water when the Poles melted and the record population currently of polar bears all died off...blah, blah, blah...more like POPPY COCK. I call BS, & I'm no scientist, just a DA MBA who took Physics in both HS & College (I see it now, folks dashing for glasses, Ice & the bottled water...learn, already will ya? it's an AGENDA to steal YOUR FREEDOM, not "save the earth"...the earth doesn't need "saving"...we do, from tyrants)
You may be unaware, Captain, but Antarctica is a continent (larger than either Europe or Australia); i.e. it is a land mass, around which the Southern Ocean flows. It is not a big ice cube, floating in the Southern Ocean.

The Antarctic ice cap sits atop this land mass and is over a mile thick. If, as you posited, all of that ice were to melt tomorrow, the devastation on the world's coastlines would be beyond description. Virtually nothing along those coastlines - home to a significant percentage of the world's population - would survive.

You may have taken physics, Captain, but you apparently skipped geography.

TaoJones




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Old 28-07-2009, 20:24   #70
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OOps, You forgot about the "LAW"?

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Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
UNFCCC
Same difference
ah, actually, Again, let me remind You, PRESIDENTS don't enter in to TREATY's for our country, per that little ditty called the US CONSTITUTION...

The SENATE does, and only by a 2/3rd's(or greater) Vote.
It's a really cool document...some of You folks really need to read it, at least once in this lifetime....since it's what Keeps YOU FREE and all?
I'm just sayin...

-Mick
Man this is entirely TOO MUCH FUN...& I'm only at the bottom of PAGE 1 ?!?
This IS GONNA Be a BLAST!
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:27   #71
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Hey Mick when you take your boat name seriously:


Schadenfreude - Schadenfreude (pronounced /ˈʃɑːdənfrɔɪdə/, German pronunciation: [ˈʃaːdənˌfʁɔʏ̯də]) is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

I don't want to imagine where you come from.
Nice pick up, council. Speaks to frame of mind and perspective.
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:42   #72
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You may be unaware, Captain, but Antarctica is a continent (larger than either Europe or Australia); i.e. it is a land mass, around which the Southern Ocean flows. It is not a big ice cube, floating in the Southern Ocean.

The Antarctic ice cap sits atop this land mass and is over a mile thick. If, as you posited, all of that ice were to melt tomorrow, the devastation on the world's coastlines would be beyond description. Virtually nothing along those coastlines - home to a significant percentage of the world's population - would survive.

You may have taken physics, Captain, but you apparently skipped geography.

TaoJones




Quite correct Tao...if anything were actually melting down there over time that could raise ocean levels...but of course there is MORE sea ice in Antarctica today than the forty year average and the ice cap is thicker than ever measured over the land. Indeed, it was recently found that some sites used over decades to measure land temperatures were giving overly warm readings due to being buried in insulating ice and snow.
You might want to check out the University of Illinois Cryosphere Site that measures the ice daily for the government and other agencies and look at the records. Here's the graph for the southern hemispheres. 0 represents the 1979-2000 ice cover average as measured by our satellites.

Source : http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosph...anom.south.jpg

Now to be fair...we have seen ice loss in the northern hemisphere... but overall global sea ice is almost exactly on average. I could go on a bit...but the bottom line is that the alarm bells are not exactly going off on this one BUT REAL Pollution in the form of SOOT from China and India coal burning is causing ground cover melt at increased rates in the northern hemisphere...and of course they are releasing other nasty stuff as well. Due to global circulation patterns this is not presently an issue in the Southern Hemisphere. CO2 is NOT the problem.
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:44   #73
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You may be unaware, Captain, but Antarctica is a continent (larger than either Europe or Australia); i.e. it is a land mass, around which the Southern Ocean flows. It is not a big ice cube, floating in the Southern Ocean.

The Antarctic ice cap sits atop this land mass and is over a mile thick. If, as you posited, all of that ice were to melt tomorrow, the devastation on the world's coastlines would be beyond description. Virtually nothing along those coastlines - home to a significant percentage of the world's population - would survive.

You may have taken physics, Captain, but you apparently skipped geography.

TaoJones

After all, who can argue with the "ice cube in a glass"? That is a classic example of the science dismissing climate change.
I can't wait for his next post...
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:47   #74
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CaptMick, I too foresee wonderful, money making opportunities all around me! Last week I bought a Parrot aviary, and this week I will close on a sheep farm. If I can continue with this trend, I will soon be able to build a whole army of disgruntled Commercial Mortgage Broker/Lenders! Soon my evil masterplan will be complete, with my final purchase, a large field on the border of Yankeetown, FL. Here I will construct the worlds largest wind farm, for, according to my research, a hot foul wind blows almost continuously. Me, "O", ALGORE and the Dragon Lady are gonna make us a fortune! See, a lights on here too!

JOKE: What do they call 2 hours of Shearing in Yankeetown, Fla.? Foreplay...
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Old 28-07-2009, 20:49   #75
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no such thing as global warming
Yep, that's what I assert (actually so does the UN Council on Climate "Change" as they had to change their name after the SCIENCE showed global temps for the last 10 years came DOWN half a degree celsius), and since the Scientists found that out, it's not "global warming" any longer, now it's "Climate Change"
coral bleaching is a myth
Where did I assert such a thing?
When did ANYBODY yet factually/scientifically connect same w/acidification?

Global warming will melt the poles, raise the sea levels and we're all going to drown...that's NOT a myth, RIGHT? As cited previously, PHYSICS calls those "Scientists" asserting same just flat out wrong...too bad they never took PHYSICS, i guess, huh?

there are no "dead zones" in the gulf of mexico
Where does the RED TIDE come from?
Why do we have municipalities from Key West to Brownsville that DUMP our HUMAN Waste, and Road Runoff in to that Gulf of Mexico?
Why is it horrific that I have a lectrasan on my boat that sucks down huge amounts of electricity (that I PRODUCED right there ON THAT BOAT), and I can't anchor out in a designated anchorage (even though I no longer HAVE an "overboard" discharging head of any sort...yet the folks with septic tanks on the banks of that same anchorage can squeal about their view being disturbed by my non-polluting boat and I GET Blamed (although both theoretically and physically impossible) for polluting the "bay", while their overfertilized lawn and septic tank (or not) drain "field" leaches IN TO THAT BAY?....oh, I get it, they pay property taxes, my boat doesn't.

we never went to the moon
Sorry, You make crazy claims here, had the honor of shaking Neil's Hand once, watched with resolute conviction July 20th starting at about 11pm watching it happen first hand, black & white, and those of us who did will never forget it...no one can convince us that it was "staged". It's also completely irrelevant to this thread.

god put fossils in the ground to confound man...
Nah, I believe there is a God and he's having a really good laugh over this petree dish called earth and us puffed up little humans who think we're so important, powerful, omnipotent, and controlling....Let's see how we all feel during the next earthquake/hurricane/tornado/volcanic eruption/tsunami....yep, we are indeed ALL POWERFUL and commanding of this here earth...not.



and ronald reagan, elvis presley and jimi hendrix are all coming over to my house for a barbecue later this evening.
Don't You talk like that about ELVIS!(Just kidding...although You better not say that in TN...they'll slash Your tires for talking trash about the "king"). Jimi, or Jim, or Janis, or even Ronnie would be cool to have a couple beers with, I just undertand the limitations of time travel; all sane folks do.

cheers
backatcha...just be sure & make that toast w/"environmentally friendly" beer, fair enough?
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