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Old 28-07-2009, 18:15   #46
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time for a science lesson

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Originally Posted by captmick39 View Post
Since when did oceanic acidification ever have relevance to CO2 levels?
When carbon dioxide mixes with seawater, carbonic acid is created (C02 + H20 = H2CO3). This reaction releases hydrogen atoms which elevate the "normal" level of the ocean's acidity (pH 8.06). This reaction doesn't happen because democrats control both houses of congress or because liberals control the world's universities, despite what Rush Limbaugh might tell you.

It's just chemistry. The higher the level of carbon dioxide in solution, the higher the acidity.
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:23   #47
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Well said sneuman and S/V Illusion!
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:24   #48
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Our Esteemed Governor of Maryland just took back all the budget monies for the Chesapeake for the last few years........It's fo the cheerun.

Anybody that thinks man caused this alone is rather arrogant.

Just follow the money (Al Gore)

If the rest of the world is going to go about its merry way...why should the US Burden it's businesses and citizens.

Heck....even the Africans are poisoning their wild life so they can raise cattle.
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:26   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captmick39 View Post
Isn't it convenient that we can cast lies in the form of "hypothications", followed by Question Marks?
You've lost me with this one - the closest word to "hypothications" I can find is:

Hypothecation - but that means something entirely unrelated to this discussion. See: Hypothecation encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

Is it possible you meant "hypotheses?"

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Old 28-07-2009, 18:41   #50
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:48   #51
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Old 28-07-2009, 18:52   #52
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Gord, I like ya,,,,I SWEAR......

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
1. Are you distraught that Randy has expressed an opinion, or merely that itís different from yours?

2. Not True.
Some of those supposed signatories are purely fraudulent, nearly all are not renowned, many are not scientists at all, and very few are actually trained in any discipline that might suggest any particular expertise in this subject.
I challenge those who state "fraudulent" signatories to cite same please for the record? Otherwise, stating "not true" is to call both me, and formerly (now dismissed for they failed to tote the party line/agenda of the UN, who are FORMERLY RENOWNED UN "quoted & cited" Scientists from which the derived documentation of our world COOLING a half degree(c) in the last 10 years) doesn't discredit the scientist, or the science; rather it discredits the discreditors who seek to destroy the reputations of those who speak their heart, mind and the facts/science regardless of what's results point to (rather than political/power grab agendas).

3. Youíre (Mick & Randy) both entitled to your opinions - right or wrong. Youíre (both) even entitled to express them, in the appropriate manner.
Am I allowed the opportunity to SPAM Email advocacy for my point to 4+ million members of a supposedly Political advocacy membership? A group who only desires that our RIGHT and freedoms (Along with the responsibility required with that freedom) to own, operate, enjoy and even LIVE, ON THE WATER; to turn around and ask us to advocate for the SURRENDER of our RIGHT...well, we're the jews marching in advocacy for the gas chambers & Randy has either been extorted in to the position, or lost his mind (in my opinion).

4. Indeed, vote with your wallet, where necessary and productive; and evangelize where able.
Why do you feel that a retail establishment's management should share your delusional word view;
My "delusional" world view is based on the simple fact that I refuse to beleive that Man, us, Human Beings have the POWER to ALTER the Earth as we've known it, for ever. It's ludicrous. How long have WE as homo sapiens been here? 5000-10000-15k years? & the earth is HOW OLD? & it's been thru HOW MANY ICE AGES before we came along? & How MANY "hot times"? I'm a pragmatist, and logic based. HOW MANY of these "Global WARMING Preaching proctologists(no offense to real MD's in the field) Have stated that the POLES MELTING WILL RAISE OUR SEA LEVELS...(Seen the idiotic MAPS?) and that we're all gonna DROWN....C'mon Gord., You probably saw "it could happen tomorrow" too and bought the whole line of crap just like all the rest of the idiots who never took PHYSICS in HS. Here's the PROBLEM with their "theorm"....they never took PHYSICS! I give You the most mere and minor DEBUNKING of "global Warming & "Climate Change" that I can:
1-Fill a glass 3/4ths full with ice
2-Add Water
3-MARK the Level where the water & Ice combined come to in glass
4-Let the ICE MELT & Come Back afterward.
5-Tell me where the water level is?
Gord, it went DOWN, as ICE takes up MORE "space" & displaces more in a frozen form than WATER Does (& no, Salinity DOESN'T Affect the model)
ERGO, IF the POLAR ICE CAPS MELTED TOMORROW....guess what...no tidal waves, no "water world", rather the sea levels would DECLINE WORLD WIDE...based on real PHYSICS & SCIENCE.
So how smart do You feel those "renowned" scientists preaching 3/4ths of Florida all being under water when the Poles melted and the record population currently of polar bears all died off...blah, blah, blah...more like POPPY COCK. I call BS, & I'm no scientist, just a DA MBA who took Physics in both HS & College (I see it now, folks dashing for glasses, Ice & the bottled water...learn, already will ya? it's an AGENDA to steal YOUR FREEDOM, not "save the earth"...the earth doesn't need "saving"...we do, from tyrants) and how does it benefit you to withold your trade from that business, based upon this disagreement?
It benefits me, my principals and those like me (and not) that I choose to associate with (or not) based on our understanding of our Great Country's Consitution, and the fact that our PRESIDENT doesn't ratify treaty's, The SENATE Does. Our Congress CAN create a (series of) Law which bankrupts our country following in the footsteps of England, France, Italy, Spain, virtually all of Europe jumped right on the "global warming TAX" band wagon...& they gave up economic prosperity to sit in the dark getting overtaken financially by producing nations who cried "BUNK". In the process of sitting in the dark (for the electric bill and the cost of EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY OTHER THING Required to LIVE) is astronomical compliments of a TAX on each of those things required to make every other thing...VAT Taxes to supress growth to stop "global climate change"....idiots. We MUST LEARN from idiocy, not REPEAT the process.

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them."
-George Santayana
or
"Those who do not know history are destined to repeat it"
-Lord Winston Churchill
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:01   #53
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Somebody who GETS IT, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
It all comes down to accusing man of causing global warming for the benefit of a few. That's hogwash.

Man has been able to adapt to the climate for thousands of years and it's time to do it again. Acidification is probably all part of the process and just another name for G. W. Even Mars is getting hotter, did we do that too? Climate change hits Mars - Times Online

Core samples from polar ice caps shows that we have had a history of high levels of CO2, more so then now, and the earth still survived! And actually, a cooling effect followed. Heck, a meteor could hit tomorrow. Try stopping that one.
If there were a climate on the Moon, we should have surely screwed that 1 up too, for let's face it...we've BEEN there, that's enough, right?

Again, I hand You the biggest 2 letter word in the language...

IF.
As my (still living) Dad always said (& still does) IF frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their tails.

Those core samples from the ice caps go back MILLIONS of years too.
I doubt they'll be melting any time soon...& even if they did, we wouldn't all be getting new WF Property...rather the opposite; Real Science, REAL PHYSICS....what a biotch it must be to realize All preached at You for the last decade was "BS". Bummer.
Thanks for pointing out what some simply refuse to see...follow the money (all the way back to a carbon credit taxation system making ALGORE a Billionaire)...it ain't about "saving the world" it's about stealing Your FREEDOM.
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:06   #54
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interesting points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
Anybody that thinks man caused this alone is rather arrogant.
Although I've certainly encountered arrogant scientists, I've never yet encountered one who ascribes climate change solely to anthropogenic (man-created) causes. Yes, there are still a few volcanoes out there, and I suspect most scientists are aware that volcanoes spew greenhouse gasses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
If the rest of the world is going to go about its merry way...why should the US Burden it's businesses and citizens.
In a word, the answer to your question ought to be: Leadership. The question itself is flawed, however, when one realizes that most of the world is not going about its merry way. Indeed, the USA lags far behind most of the industrialized world in addressing the sources of climate disruption.
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:17   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
Ugh and why do they jerk so? Aren't our oceans important enough to us as boaters for us to just do the research with an open mind? What is the psychology behind this denial? Is it because people are just tired of too much bad news?

If you aren't going to take an educated approach to it then go spend ten minutes in a marina and look into a leward slip, drive down a congested freeway and notice the yellow patina all around you. Go to any major metropolitan harbor and look in the more industrial areas. It's right in front of you. That stuff goes into our oceans. Fish live in oceans.
May I suggest You take a visit to Calcutta, or the Ganges, or Africa (nearly the entire continent & it's coastlines), or China, or even Vietnam, or Mexico City...head down to the DUMP (where some folks live out their entire lives never knowing there is a world beyond it) and realize, NO, I am NOT saying we (as man, human beings) don't Pollute...only a fool woud make such an assertion. I AM saying that the earth has been cleaning itself up for millenia, and long before we were here and long after we're gone, it will STILL BE CLEANING ITSELF UP. We ARE MIGHTY Arrogant as a species indeed if we think we CAN affect the outcome, or actually CAUSE the "damage"...as yes, we're hit by asteriods every minute world wide. Odds are 1 will tote a resistent "bug" (like "the andromenda strain" that will do us in, or as pointed out, a big enough 1 and we're all gonners in minutes anyway...just like mr. "T-Rex". There are also INSIDE Influences that could change the world as we know it...tomorrow; volcanoes, all of them known and a few new 1's erupting continuously starting tomorrow at maximum velocity/flow & let me know how long we survive as a species when the plants die, the food stock shrivels, and anarchy reigns supreme? Could it happen tomorrow? Sure it could. DID We do anything to STOP it?
What exactly do we do to stop volcanoes from eruption, please advise, I'm dying to hear this?

Why the analogy? because volcanoes, each year emit more "greenhouse gases" and toxic gases(to human and most other life) EACH Year than Man has in the last century. Think about that statistic. Then think about it equating to the "acidification" of our oceans (most of which, actually ALL of which, have VOLCANOES at their depths).

Do I pollute? No
Do I have solar panel produced electricity? Why yes, yes I do.
Do I have VAWT (Wind Turbine) produced electricity? Yep.
Am I "green"? I think so.
Does it MATTER to the "earth"?
nah.
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:32   #56
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Quote:
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I love this and how exactly does it benefit a few?

There is actually an ulterior motive to fighting pollution. It's called not wanting to live with other people's garbage all around you and not wanting to breath other people's exhaust?

If that's hogwash then I invite anyone to wash that hog.
Unbusted....I jumped on the bandwagon for MONEY REASONS....
30cents per KWH for my "green" produced electricity supplied back to the grid (at the shop, at the house, at the boat)...if "cap&tax" passes already been told that goes to SIXTY Cents per kwh.
Waiting on 4 more VAWT's (vertical axis wind turbines) as this is typed...
yes a FEW....I'm 1 of them. I ordered them the night "O" prevailed. Being ahead of the curve when punishment comes leaves prophets unpunished.
I get THOUSANDS of dollars back per month from a power utility that YOU and others like You screaming for more "green energy" are about to begin PAYING for... I will only make MORE Money while You spend more, for Me to be paid more....ALGORE is the 1 who laid out the carbon tree with it's leaves of credits...so be it; I find the hypocracy of "worshiping" a guy who uses more electricity than most of the posters on this entire discussion board combines flat out entertaining. Having a biodiesel "still" in our garage was environmentally friendly, the incentives were off the chart, fuel for 50 cents a gallon was the ultimate motivator. You want "green"? I give You a diesel generator running off biodiesel, solar, wind all supplying power back to that "grid", me GRINNING all the way to the bank, going sailing & motoring out to the wind on that "free" biodiesel, of course we have an airex & panels on the boat, we harness the wind to take us where we want....bottom line is I'm a CAPITALIST. & I'll "work the system" just as long as You stalwarts are silly enough to contribute to your own demise.
Think about that.
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:43   #57
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FWIW,

I got the email too. I thought it was a good marketing decision. Even if only a slight majority of the population sees this as an issue, WM can go on record as being concerned about 'saving the oceans'. Probably good marketing, especially when your market is folks who like to spend time on the water.

The number of folks who will boycott WM over this is minimal, but the majority of those those who receive the email are more likely to feel some level of good will towards WM. Especially important when folks are not spending money like they have in the past (or at least shop around and spend less of it at WM).
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:50   #58
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Dude, China signed the Kyoto Protocol, India and the US did not.
"Busted"(for here You are),
my name is mick, never surfed so "dude" is inappropriate, and regardless their SIGNATURE on that Kyoto "treaty", they've been bringing a COAL FIRED Power plant on line EACH WEEK (or more) for the last 2 YEARS? Prior that they had all the diesel generators that are now being shipped to INDIA. Been there, seen that. China Said "No Thanks" to most recent G8 Proposals, UN Proposals, and currently produces 60% of the world's polution...ALL of it. Air, Sea & Ground. Staggering when You think about the fact that they're probably only at our economic position circa 1900? They will kill us all and could care less (I cite poison in toothpaste, juice & baby foods shipped here as examples, & then there's that little LEAD in Paint, in toys, and the nasty sheetrock/drywall issues?...yet we continue to buy EVERYTHING from them? Soon w/all the new taxes, the "cheap chinese crap" will be all any of us can afford). They are and will be the world's polluter, we've been in "clean up" mode for the last 25 years and continue to do so. We're just throwing ourselves over the economic cliff to a financial abyss of which there is almost no return with carbon taxes...let us not forget....what IS that YOU Exhale?
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:52   #59
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I ordered them the night "O" prevailed. Being ahead of the curve when punishment comes leaves prophets unpunished.
I find you offensive Capt. You simply disgust me. IMHO, Chris
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Old 28-07-2009, 19:55   #60
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The ocean is .1 PH more acidic today than it was in 1850 but of course ph has been higher and lower in the past and note that the ph change is since 1850...not since 1950 or so when scientists agree that MAN started adding carbon. Also the oceans today vary quite widely in ph as rain, runoff, geography, volcanic activity, ocean currents affect PH.

What reef damage there is in the world is NOT from acidification...but from pollution, (the real stuff...not CO2), storms, and invading organisms. Coral has many millions of years of history and it has survived and prospered at significantly higher CO2 and temperature that we have today.

....but the pretty coral is just like the cute polar bears that are also growing in population.... they get people to FEEL like something should be done even if the science is missing.

The West Latrine Chairman had better focus on his business as they are getting their butts kicked despite having a retail monopoly. My guess is he'll be long gone before the coral reefs are. My further guess is that he just lost a chunk of his existing customer base since half of the American public no longer believes the crap he is handing out and resents being preached at by zealots who don't have a clue and want to hit us with the biggest tax increase in our history to pay for THEIR beliefs.
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