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Old 28-07-2009, 14:36   #31
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Originally Posted by anotherT34C View Post
We'll just have to work on their kids when they're in school, and wait for the crazies to die off.
No no, we have to veer away from this thinking. You can't change people's minds by bludgeoning them or just writing them off. I used to think this way but intolerance is no answer to ignorance. Education is the answer and you don't educate people by waiting for them to die off, you do it nicely.

But really who gains from pollution prevention? You, me, everyone right? I don't understand it when people say the environment is a political issue. For me it is a personal issue because the outdoors is so near and dear to me.

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Old 28-07-2009, 14:49   #32
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This "debate" serves no purpose, other than to divide a great group of people. You won't change my mind with what you write, I won't change yours. I'd suggest that it might be in the best interest of everyone that this thread be locked.

If one chooses to respond to Randy's post via email, go for it - either positive or negative.

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Old 28-07-2009, 15:08   #33
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For the cruising community, it's a no-brainer. The environmental benefits significantly outweigh the costs, because cruisers are as close to the ocean as can be, and sailors have such a tiny carbon footprint (setting aside the production impact of their vessels). Meanwhile, the mitigation costs make life more expensive for the land-lubbers, meaning that it will take them that much longer to save enough to cast off, meaning that the best anchorages will be that much less crowded.

I'm surprised there's any debate at all!
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Old 28-07-2009, 15:12   #34
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You know, we can argue this back n forth for a dogs age and never agree. And for what its worth our generation may never really see if its true or not. But I will bet that your children will be cursing our graves, rather than applauding.

Yes, man has adapted to climate change several times in the past and he may well do it again. However, there are a few things that are different this time around. One is the population of the world. 6.5 billion is a lot more than there was the last time. Two, the amount of forest is greatly reduced over last time and the soil of the areas that are tillable is for the most part in pretty poor shape. Third, the oceans are indeed dying. Those who don't think so, carry on, it won't be screamingly noticeable until you are pushing up daisies. Your kids will notice.

Our generation (boomers) and the next couple have had it all, spent it all and the piper needs to be paid. Get used to it. Personally, Im glad I'm going to be dead in 10-15 years, because its not going to be much fun around here.

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Old 28-07-2009, 15:23   #35
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Originally Posted by Beausoleil View Post
FWIW, I'll side with global warming - the economic hit the naysayers talk about is far more exaggerated than the data supporting GW.
I am more in the camp that can smell a gravy train from a mile away - .......but doesn't mean that I think it is a good idea to dump industrial waste into my drinking water, stuff like that is just commonsense and good for business, in the long term. Indeed, I also beleive that economies of the world will have to undergo a fundamental change from slash & burn capitalism to a more sustainable form of capitalism over the next 30 to 50 years for our societies to survive. but that has to do with economics - not the weather ...........and that will include moving from oil / gas / col carbon to nuclear for electric power - and that part won't be hard, the French have already have already done it (80% nuke / 15% tidal etc).
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Old 28-07-2009, 15:25   #36
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I don't get it! If there is a storm coming don't most folk take appropriate action? If winter is coming don't you put winter tires on your car? So if it looks like the ocean is going to hell dosen't it make sense to try and do something about it - no matter what the cause or "who is responsible"?

It really makes no difference if the ocean can absorb everyones waste (or not)- I don't want to be swimming in it and I doubt 99.9% of the rest of the people do either. Being pro-active is just in our own interst.
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Old 28-07-2009, 15:31   #37
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Most logical people look back at the Viet Nam war and say, "damn, the hippies were right."

Ain't it gonna be a hellva note if in 40 years (I hope to be gone by then) if my grandchildren look back and say, "damn, the greenies were right." That, after our oceans are dead.

I guess we can build a black wall and note all the extinct species, that will make it OK. Right?

2 tours, Nam for me. Yeah, I lost friends. We as a nation and government were wrong then, I hope we do the right thing now, whatever that is.
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Old 28-07-2009, 15:35   #38
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Originally Posted by bstreep View Post
This "debate" serves no purpose, other than to divide a great group of people. You won't change my mind with what you write, I won't change yours. I'd suggest that it might be in the best interest of everyone that this thread be locked.

If one chooses to respond to Randy's post via email, go for it - either positive or negative.

No No No. Please don't lock it. It makes entertaining reading and it is interesting to see who really thinks climate change is a myth.
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Old 28-07-2009, 15:42   #39
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So does anyone here besides Texwards, see the beginnings of a cultural shift? We the people are electing and the businesses are hiring those who are concerned about implementing policy to slow plantery destruction that is so obviously caused by the human race. That some folks have the foresight to understand that the capitalist will make less money and the consumer will not have as many things to consume in order to benefit human kind as race not as population. Finally, are we seeing the fact that at first it is the coral reefs and questioningn how long will it be before a simple chemical change in our own environment threatens our own survivability? When businesses believe that they must embrace conservation at the risk of their bottom line, it should give us hope, not feelings of disdain.

Of course, the devil is in the details. The problem, of course, is that the devil cannot be ignored.
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:29   #40
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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
hogwash. check your facts.

anecdotal evidence does not a science make, but since global warming deniers seem obsessed with such things, try taking a look at the weather map in the Pacific Northwest right this minute.

The "30,000 world renowned scientists" is bogus. Check the signatures: 0.1% of the signatories have a background (not necessarily degree, mind you) in climatology and the headquarters of the petition drive is housed in a glorified aluminum shed in Cave Junction, OR.:

Home - Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine
Kevin Grandia: The 30,000 Global Warming Petition Is Easily-Debunked Propaganda

Google the names on the petition. Many have absolutely no publicly accessible qualifications in any field; others seem to be famous (on the Internet) only for signing that petition.
Please Deny the FINDINGS of the UN Study on Global Atmospheric Conditions NOTING that the world temp has dropped by .5 degrees (C) in the last 10 years?
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:31   #41
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I don/t truely believe all this, just look at whos telling us this the most (politicans). I don't throw fuel or oil overboard, I hate plastic Walmart bags, and can't stand disposable items that you use once and throw away. Im not an inviromentalist but I dispise of blatant poluting. I do my part afterall I use sails for every thing except docking and they will want to tax me for the few minutes that I run my motor befor long. I don't buy in to it, there are tons of facts supporting both sides of this spectrum. Just do what you can for the inviroment, which doesnt mean Im fiving up my 4x4 suv though.
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:37   #42
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wasn't trying to "lose" warming is bunk!

Originally Posted by slomotion View Post
Kind of lost me on this one.

It's probably fair to say that the chairman of West Marine speaks for, well .... West Marine. I fail to see where he claims to speak for BoatUS or its membership. You are illogically offended by the act of solicitation because you disagree with its substance. Why is this different from receiving political literature from a party, candidate, or other group you disagree with? Or do you always start a counter campaign in response unwelcome e-mail? Try the Delete button.
As stated in the email SLO, been a BoatUS member for 40+ years.
WM did a takeover of BoatUS's retail locations (& the rest of the .org) at the same time.

BOATUS is nothing more than the lobbying arm for WM now in my opinion.
IF West Marine chooses to advocate for $5. a gal.+ fuel, "carbon limits", doubling YOUR Electric Bill (& the cost of every other single thing that You touch or experience in life)...You should vote with Your wallet.
Shop Elsewhere.
BoatUS got Commercialized.
Now they're being Socialized.

The equivilant of Winchester, Colt, or Ruger "BUYING" the NRA, then advocating total gun control.
It's called hypocrisy. Sort of like our in general.
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Old 28-07-2009, 16:53   #43
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Rain...follow the dots please?

Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
The letter is not talking about global warming, it is talking about ocean acidification. In fact it never mentions global warming.

I think perhaps your knee jerks too much.
Rain...perhaps You missed this part (2nd paragraph, quoting, emphasis mine):

"What would you do if you knew that many species of fish and other marine life in the ocean will be gone within 30 years if levels of C02 continue increasing at their present rate?"

CO2 levels "Green-house Gasses", "Climate Change", "global warming", all the same; different "buzz words" for different audiences, SAME Agenda. There's no different stripe on any of those zebras. Isn't it convenient that we can cast lies in the form of "hypothications", followed by Question Marks?

What would YOU DO, Rain, if You knew I was out to destroy the world as we know it and create a chemical weapon that dissolves Fiberglass Resin?
Well? see how the game of semantics gets played? all behind the biggest 2 letter word in the English Language. Did they/he really need to SPELL OUT "G-L-O-B-A-L-W-A-R-M-I-N-G" For You to not grasp the agenda?

Since when did oceanic acidification ever have relevance to CO2 levels? Since when were humans so powerful that we could control volcanoes or methane gas spilling from the earths core under those oceans causing (both scenarios aforementioned) 1000x the acidification "mere mortal man" could ever possibly at our worst contribute?

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Old 28-07-2009, 16:55   #44
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Just a personal observation. I've been on the water for nearly 50 years and the weather patterns where I've sailed have changed. Not a great deal but enough for me to notice. Whether its global warming or just a big weather cycle I'm not certain. I know there is a lot more junk in the water and the fish have all but disappeared in places where they used to be easy to catch.
Here in Hawaii the reefs are slowly getting smaller and there are things that are growing them over and strangling them. The beaches are disappearing.
Things are changing and not in a good way. I personally don't think some of this stuff can be reversed.
I hope I'm wrong and maybe some of you have more experience on the water and can give us some encouraging news from your perspective.
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Old 28-07-2009, 17:05   #45
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Originally Posted by mangomuffins View Post
god put fossils in the ground to confound man...
It didnt work for me...

Capt Mick, please try to refrain from posting TOTAL crap as fact on this forum. Your 30,000 signatures...does this sound logical to you? Seriously?

Ocean acidification...Global warming...I don't care what you don't believe. I'm 47, and in my time as an adult on this Earth I have witnessed SEVERE damage to reefs I have loved, IN THE LAST 30 YEARS. Hows that for fact? They were live, and now they're 60% dead. You can post fraudulent facts all you want, but you cant change what I've seen with my own eyes.


Here's to swimmin' with bowlegged women!
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