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Old 14-02-2010, 20:11   #91
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c=299,792,458 m/s
Now there's a LAW. And that's a box that you aren't easily going to get out of.

Seriously, distillation isn't out of the question. There are several clever examples in this thread. But you have to generate enough energy to overcome the entropy of separating the salt from the water. At room temperature not absolute zero.) I don't know what that is (per gallon or per gram). Maybe I'll try to figure it out tomorrow. And using the sun as a heat source and seawater as the "cold" source will surely work when the sun is shining. But Anjou has it right...design it to fit and work on a sailboat. Have to get the engineers on that one.
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Old 14-02-2010, 20:32   #92
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c=299,792,458 m/s
Now there's a LAW. And that's a box that you aren't easily going to get out of.
And laws were made to be...what?

Copernicus broke the law by suggesting that the sun was the center of our solar system and not the Earth. Galileo was arrested for his support of that theory. It was the law then. The wisest and most scientific men of that time surely thought that there could be no other way. Until someone suggested a way.

Now sure, the speed of light seems like a tough one to crack. Somehow though, if black holes really exist, the light can't escape and therefore the speed must be different.

Does anyone really think that 400 years from now, seriously, that the so called "laws of science" that we assume today will still be standing? I'd rather hope not.
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Old 14-02-2010, 21:15   #93
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And laws were made to be...what?

Copernicus broke the law by suggesting that the sun was the center of our solar system and not the Earth. Galileo was arrested for his support of that theory. It was the law then. The wisest and most scientific men of that time surely thought that there could be no other way. Until someone suggested a way.

Now sure, the speed of light seems like a tough one to crack. Somehow though, if black holes really exist, the light can't escape and therefore the speed must be different.

Does anyone really think that 400 years from now, seriously, that the so called "laws of science" that we assume today will still be standing? I'd rather hope not.
I don't know. Newton's Laws are still around. They are STILL known as good aproximtions for most everyday systems. They were around since the late 1600. That's almost 400 years ago. They only fall apart under specific circumstances that Newton couldn't have known about.

The Maxwell Equations that virtualy all of modern physics is STILL based on were first published in 1864.

I'd say a law isn't made to be broken. Just admended, maybe edited a little.
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Old 14-02-2010, 21:50   #94
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Is there a chemist or Physisist in the house?

Im not the classically trained type, more hands on and so theory isnt quite my forte.
For the past few months ive continued pondering on water makers. They are a mixed blessing, expensive to make, run and maintain. Is there a better way of providing water?

H2O is all around us. In its constituent elements its the combination of 2 Hydrogen molecules and 1 Oxygen.
Hydrogen and Oxygen are gases, but combined they form a liquid.
Gas is lighter than water
Gases can be compressed, liquids cannot, therefore liquids are bulky and heavy.


Aircraft con trails are condensed vapour.
The separate oxygen and 2 hydrogen elements in the atmosphere have been pressed together to make water.


All thats needed is either a pressure pump to force 2 x H and 1 x O molecules together at the right temperature or a canister of each gas and a mixing chamber.

Ok, im not expecting a Nobel prize or even a Horarary Science Doctorate for this observation, and I sure cant patent it as its a natural process, but why hasnt anyone thought of dehydrated water before?

Its so simple, whats not to like and why cant it work?
It can work. In fact, it's even easier than that, because you don't need the canister of O -- you can get that out of the air. You could store a big tank of compressed (or liquified) H and combine it with O from the atmosphere to make water. You'd get a ton of energy out of it at the same time -- make electrical power from a fuel cell or run an engine.

No problem at all, except that you would pay about $2 or $3 per kilo of hydrogen (that reflects the cost of energy needed to separate it from water or natural gas) and the fuel cell you burn it in is also not too cheap. The device to capture and condense the combustion product (water vapor) is not produced; I reckon you could have one made for $50,000 or so because the process is not complicated. Storing the H is also fairly complicated and expensive. So you would be drinking the most expensive water in the world -- probably $35/liter or $50/liter or so if you figure in amortization of all the equipment? It would cost like a fine Bordeaux wine.

Water from an R/O desalinator will be much, much cheaper, and the equipment required is much simpler and easier to install.
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Old 14-02-2010, 21:53   #95
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Just read in the latest Popular Science
Dan
I read that too but I also remember reading some stuff in Popular Science 20+ years ago that is still a dream waiting to come true.

Be careful what Pop Sci says about "people working on it".

Last year there was a guy that was going to prove fusion on a small scale in his garage. Still waiting..............
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Old 14-02-2010, 22:05   #96
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Pigs dont sweat as they have no sweat glands, just like dogs.

So that is why they don't taste salty when you lick em.
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Old 15-02-2010, 01:06   #97
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Quit licking the pigs, they're starting to expect it.

I have huge mass in my keel and some sizeable deck footage as well. It seems if boats were designed from the beginning with harnessing the sun and tides as well as wind (and had a pig for Therapy to lick) they could be used to store energy. That might make the cost of creating water a little more manageable.
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Old 15-02-2010, 03:13   #98
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Quit licking the pigs, they're starting to expect it.

I have huge mass in my keel and some sizeable deck footage as well. It seems if boats were designed from the beginning with harnessing the sun and tides as well as wind (and had a pig for Therapy to lick) they could be used to store energy. That might make the cost of creating water a little more manageable.
Thats what I'm thinking...what if the boat was designed a "whole system" from the beginning.

Sure seems we can do better then a bunch of individual systems.
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:14   #99
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Why am I getting emails from all these lonely pigs all of a sudden?
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Old 15-02-2010, 06:46   #100
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About 15 years ago, a heating engineer was in a plant room to do some servicing and he put his hand on what he knew to be a cold feed pipe, and it was almost too hot to touch. He double checked there was no crossover or back flow from anther system, and there wasnt.
He gave a lot of thought to this and discovered there was high frequency water hammer in the cold system and the friction generated the heat.
ok, fast forward.......he made a device like a washing machine, with an inner and outer drum. The inner drum revolved at very high speed, many thousands of RPM and into this he injected a mist of water. It spun out through the holes in the inner drum, and blasted against the outer drum. It caused a lot of heat to be generated in the water which turned to steam.

He build a working prototype and installed it at his local fire dept, where they were only too willing to use the hot water. a small unit the size of a TV set made more than enough hot water.
He worte a paper on it and published. The science comuniity were in awe and went to see it work.
They marvelled at it and then shook heads and said it was a fake, fraud etc because it broke Boyles law.
Here is a YouTube link to that machine.

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Old 15-02-2010, 08:06   #101
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Not to throw a spanner in the works, but lets not forget....boats don't sit still. Solar distillation on board would be spotty at best at anchor (unless the water was still) and down right impossible underway with standard reflector systems. The "collector/reflector" would have to be wide-angle and super efficient to collect enough constant sun to do the job.
If these solar evacuated tubes achieve 200c, then one could slow the feed enough to allow it to flash to steam, then run it through a condenser coil cooled with fresh seawater. An expansion "system" would be necessary...
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:21   #102
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My feeling is the most efficient way to have fresh water is to carry diesel. There is no more convenient fuel than diesel. The engine you already have plus a good RO watermaker will 'convert' one liter of diesel to 200 liters of fresh water: 40,000 liters (10,000g) per tank!
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:45   #103
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Nothing what is being suggested in this thread will beat RO. What we need is a discovery.

About that box: discoveries are always outside the box. The best example is the World Exhibition in Chicago where Tesla demonstrated "wireless" (radio). He was a bit bored with it and decided to spice it up so he made a model of a submarine that could submerge and re-surface again in addition to forward propulsion and steering. He made it radio controlled. The whole world (except a few who kept their mouths shut) ridiculed it and condemned it as being a trick. Wireless alone was hard enough to deal with and this combination with remote control was so far outside the box that they didn't cope with it. If their minds would have been more open to discoveries, the US would have had cruise missiles in WW2 !!
The boundaries of the box are a fluid thing and most discoveries move them.

Our boat has a rain catching system that is designed into the whole boat. It is all we need in the rainy season, but the RO is crucial outside that in remote area's. Cruisers who say they don't need RO come begging for water with boats who do have one in those areas.

cheers,
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:57   #104
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Old 15-02-2010, 09:00   #105
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