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Old 08-04-2009, 10:29   #16
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The vessel has been retaken by the American Crew and at least one Pirate is in Custody.

US crew reportedly takes over ship from pirates - Yahoo! News

And for the record, if the Pirates only had oil then I am sure we would have kicked their ass a long time ago...but since they don't, I don't really see us doing anything officially about it anytime soon.
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:12   #17
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I think a good analogy for guidance in what to do here was our experience with Khadafi/Libia. He sponsored terrorism, including killing Americans, all through the 1970s, until Reagan took office. One incident and Reagan sent a cruise missile into his house.

Result: No more problem with Libia
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:14   #18
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Yes, this thread is too political for this site. It was started largley in order to take a swipe at the current US president, rather than as a rational discussion about appropriate measures that can be taken by vessels in those waters (regardless of their flags - this is, afterall, a venue for international cruisers) and by the nations whose flags they carry.

Mobetah, when people from the United States refer to NATO as a joke, it makes it very difficult for countries like Canada to justify spending billions of dollars and to sustaining hundreds of casualties fighting in Afghanistan in support of the United Sates - yes, we are there because of the 9/11 attack on a fellow member of NATO. Perhaps you should tell the proud families of the Canadian soldiers who have been killed and maimed there that NATO is a joke.

No, it is not (nor should it be ) just the United States that is fighting terrorism. No, it is not (nor should it be) just the United States that is fighting piracy - and the French in particular have taken a very active and aggressive role of late in pursuing pirates ( in one recently publicized incident they successfully used their equivalent of Navy Seals in order to free pirated persons being held for ransom).

I, like you, am firmly of the belief that greater measures should be taken by all nations whose ships are plying those waters. But I also believe that it is an international problem that will require a considered response by all of those affected - understanding that the lives of the captives should be a primary concern, followed by the sustainability of any effort in the area at increased policing. And that is where international cooperation will be crucial, particularly in a time where US resources are spread to the limit.

I did not say that the United States navy cannot intervene in international waters - of course they can and should. My point is that it is exceedingly unlikely that the vessel is still there and hence, international law applies (or at least it does to countries such as the United States, that are governed by the rule of law).

Regardless of the view that anyone takes of the current administration, I assume that we all hope and pray that this immediate matter is resolved without the deaths of the hostages. I assume we also hope that those responsible can be brought to justice and that in future, increased policing/measures of security can be brought to the area (and to other hotspots of piracy).

Rather than a short-term, knee jerk response, some of us will recall the Iranian hostage crisis. Yes, that was when the Canadian Embassy under then Ambassador Taylor, held safe the staff from the US Embassy in Iran for the better part of a year (until he and our government were able to arrange a ruse in order to get them out of the country safely). Or is that solution to a hostage crisis involving US citizens outside the realm of discussion because it involved international cooperation and the efforts of a 'joke' - another NATO member, Canada?

In many surverys the populations of the rest of the World have expressed hope in President Obama, not because he is a wimp, but because they believe he will attempt to work with other countries in pursuing common objectives. They hope that he will return the United States to a position where it is recognized as a leader in the fight for freedom that nevertheless respects the rights of other countries to develop their own foreign policies. That he will develop a policy of resorting to military action as only the last resort.

Rather than seeing this incident as a test of his 'backbone', I prefer to see it as a test of his intelligence, and of his willingness not to bow to pressure for an immediate, if not necessarily effective response to a serious issue.

Brad
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Old 08-04-2009, 13:14   #19
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While I have yet to witness an incient in which the UN has really triumphed and impressed the World in enforcement, I think it is disingenious to associate the UN with NATO, which has proven historically, to be rather effective, if not the most effective alliance in history.

I would also point out that Chinese vessels are also on Pirate patrol.
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Old 08-04-2009, 15:00   #20
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Oh well, you reap what you sow.

1) the media debacle of the Somali invasion (see Blackhawk Down)
2) Giving in to criminals and paying ransoms and then not going and taking it back

Yes, the world need to put a stop to Somalia... second try because the first time was totally screwed up... sounds like somewhere else?


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Old 08-04-2009, 15:30   #21
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While I don't necessarily think this is decisive (or necessarily a "test" of Obama -- there are bigger fish right now, frankly), but I do think the fact that the crew is American changes the dynamics somewhat. Typically, crews are from poor, less-developed countries such as the Philippines or Bangladesh. White faces will get more than passing attention on the TV.
Just wondering why you assume their faces are white?
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:03   #22
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Seems like the crew of this ship took their fate in their own hands. Heard a great interview with a captain and teacher of ship board security whose son happened to be the security chief on the Maersk Alabama. He is trained and practiced and at least at this moment (6PM CDT Wednesday 4/8/2009) it seems to be paying off. Keep hoping.
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:18   #23
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Yes, its political...everything relating to different nations is. Lets leave specific politicians out of the discussion. When you start discussing specific politicians or political parties you have crossed that line. Please don't force the Mods to have to close this thread.
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:33   #24
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When you start discussing specific politicians or political parties you have crossed that line.
This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum.
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:36   #25
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This is the first American Vessel seized since the Corsairs of Tripoli.

I don't expect the President to do much of anything. Sad

Since he is making a habit of Bowing to Kings and Queens.
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:43   #26
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I know that I've opined on this before, on different threads, but the situation is too complex for a simple answer. The "kill them all and let god sort them out" crowd always has the same response. But in this instance, the factors are logistic nightmares.

1) The pirates live in thriving (by area standards) communities replete with children, mothers, grandmothers and grandfathers who have nothing to do with the piratical activities. Airstrikes against staging area ground targets are therefore a no go.

2) There is no government supervision/control of the area. Hence there is no ground presence that a UN, NATO or ad hoc multinational force could interact with and use for intelligence. A ground force for suppression would be a nightmare.

3) There is some culpability on the part of the industrialized nations--the ones whose ships are being ransomed--in creating the dire straits that Somalia finds itself in now. Europe has been dumping radioactive waste off of their shores for decades, which has annihilated the fish stocks these fishermen have historically relied upon to feed their families. It's as though we've removed their ability to feed themselves, and then told them, effectively, to starve rather than disrespect our claims to "property" in their backyard. This is one account of the "pirate" attitude:

A spokesman for the pirates, who reportedly use the autonomous region of Puntland as their base, told Al Jazeera some of the ransom money will be used to help clean up waters off the Somali coast ravaged by years of toxic waste dumping. The ransom demand is a means of “reacting to the toxic waste that has been continually dumped on the shores of our country for nearly 20 years,” the spokesman said.

Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN special envoy for Somalia, said the world body had “reliable information” that European and Asian companies are responsible for the dumping. The United Nations has also been told that some Somali pirates claim to act as “coast guards,” protecting their country’s waters, he added.

Establishing a real government should fall under the auspices of the UN, and should be supported by the world community. We can't let these people starve, but the present situation is equally unacceptable and it is a matter of time before there is bloodshed.
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Old 08-04-2009, 17:48   #27
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This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum.
He's referring to the unfortunate fact that specific political "call outs" inevitably deteriorate into name-calling and other childish behavior.
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Old 08-04-2009, 18:59   #28
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1) The pirates live in thriving (by area standards) communities replete with children, mothers, grandmothers and grandfathers who have nothing to do with the piratical activities. Airstrikes against staging area ground targets are therefore a no go.
So, sink them at sea.

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3) There is some culpability on the part of the industrialized nations--the ones whose ships are being ransomed--in creating the dire straits that Somalia finds itself in now. Europe has been dumping radioactive waste off of their shores for decades, which has annihilated the fish stocks these fishermen have historically relied upon to feed their families.
The bad behavior of Somali pirates cannot be justified or excused because of the bad behavior of other countries.


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Establishing a real government should fall under the auspices of the UN, and should be supported by the world community. We can't let these people starve, but the present situation is equally unacceptable and it is a matter of time before there is bloodshed.
And isn't it ironic that part of the cargo of this ship was food aid for Somalia?


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Old 08-04-2009, 19:30   #29
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And isn't it ironic that part of the cargo of this ship was food aid for Somalia?
Nothing ironic at all. First US captain in 200 years. I'm sure they would have rather have had the boat. It's not about justification - it is about the money. Some things really are simple.
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Old 08-04-2009, 19:42   #30
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This is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum.
No, THIS is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum. It's OK though, it goes with most of the BS that has been spread across this thread... Dont look for a smiley face here.
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