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Old 20-12-2013, 16:06   #61
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Originally Posted by mcm View Post
If the free market cannot function in the US system, you will eventually bankrupt the system, look at the UK history, look at New Zealand history, Canada is running very close to he line as 90% of health care is union employees who just keep demanding more and more out of the system , people who are lonely also use the system as a crutch for someone to talk to and invent illness which does not exist for them, these stresses are becoming extreme.
We have now "walk in clinics" where first come first serve is the rule, all staff are fully qualified and no longer the need to wait for Dr's appt, this was fought tooth and nails by the unions and the left wing parties under the quise of it being "for profit" health care, it was not that as the fees paid to the practitioners were pd by the Gov't same as family Dr.
The big issue is going to be cost control, the continuous release of new expensive drugs, new very expensive diagnostic equipment and the escalating cost of salaries and fat benefits (see auto industry history in Detroit)

Lets hope that the market place which are the consumers step in and demand that the system be for them the consumer and payor and not for the providers.
What's wrong with the UK system , the NHS isn't bad , works reasonably well ,woe betide any UK government that tries to seriously tamper with it.

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Old 20-12-2013, 16:07   #62
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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This really has nothing to do with politics
you are correct as long as we remain a one party system
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:08   #63
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Everyone buys food, does that mean there is no such thing as a free market in food?
To remain consistant with your example, the Government would need to mandate what food we could buy, at what cost, and at what profit margin for the grocery store. When you are forced to buy a product, it's price set by the government, you can try to call that free market all you want...but lipstick on a pig is still a pig.

The fact that more people have been given cancelation notices than have signed up freely for Obamacare should tell you something? Damn evil tea party...it's all their fault for wanting to push grandma off the cliff...ya ya ya...time to get back to changing out my head hose...it smells better than where this thread is going anyway....
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:12   #64
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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To remain consistant with your example, the Government would need to mandate what food we could buy, at what cost, and at what profit margin for the grocery store.
Government is not mandating cost. That was my whole point.
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:25   #65
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

Great thread. I don't usually get involved in political threads but this is what this is. All I know is most of my American cruiser friends are unhappy with what's going on.
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:45   #66
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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The fact that more people have been given cancelation notices than have signed up freely for Obamacare should tell you something?
... citation? I find that stat hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by vasco
Great thread. I don't usually get involved in political threads but this is what this is. All I know is most of my American cruiser friends are unhappy with what's going on.
This thread is pretty much on track with all the previous healthcare debates here on CF.

I appreciate that many in the US are unhappy with the ACA. I also appreciate that a certain party and adherents are spending uncounted millions trying to make sure that everyone knows why they should be unhappy with the ACA, even to the point of putting up fake and misleading websites. Hmmm... if the ACA is so bad, why all the effort to tell you this?

The ACA IS flawed, and speaking as a professional programmer, that web rollout was... embarrassing. Jeez. There's two incontrovertible facts about the ACA: It's better than anything that was put forward by the GOP ( a no-brainer, cos the GOP put forward... nothing), and it's better overall than what went before.

Why are so many US cruisers upset with the ACA? Gee, I dunno... why ever would a cohort of overwhelmingly white, middle or upper-class US males be against it?
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:48   #67
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post

Why are so many US cruisers upset with the ACA? Gee, I dunno... why would a cohort of overwhelmingly white, middle or upper-class US males be against it?


Brilliant summary.
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:54   #68
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

I don't understand how anyone is ok with anyone but themselves being involved in their personal lives. Why we still continue to put up with income taxes (at least in the USA) is beyond me.

At least we have sailing in common...I could do without the government.
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Old 20-12-2013, 16:57   #69
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You simply can't do healthcare on the free market principle. No more then you can do secondary schooling. You must decide what the public policy has to be first.

(a) do you want to provide reasonable healthcare to all , for an affordable sum

(B) do you want people to be able pay for it themselves and hence get the system they want, but you accept a society where wealth determines health.

Now having decided that you have to look at a finance model. Healthcare unlike food , is a service biased towards one particular sector , the ill , most particularly the elderly ill. They don't have the choice to forgo treatment in reality

Then there is the cost, since the costs ( in any scheme) of many procedures, the cost of hospital bed-nights , follow on care etc is expensive , it's not a model where many people could afford or finance the " cash flow" hit of a major illness even if theoretically they had the income over time. They can hardly schedule illness.

Now even if you saved all your life to build a medical payment lump sum, it's unlikely for most , that that amount would be enough, especially since you cannot control the severity or duration of an illness. The reality is the cost has to be shared out amongst not only the ill , but the healthy too. I, who am healthy have to accept a charge to contribute to your healthcare costs , so that in time , I will avail of such services , subsidised by the next generation of healthy contributors.

Therefore you are forced into one or two schemes, both which ultimately require everyone to contribute. The first is provision via universal health insurance , ie the whole community pays for the collective health of its members. Or, alternatively the government pays the health providers and extracts compensation from the general tax take , either specifically like France or the UK, via a national insurance charge or just out of general tax , say like Ireland. In that case again the whole community is funding the healthcare of its members. Funnily just like the first method

You simply cannot , and no country has ever succeeded in a private market driven free healthcare system. The US has twisted and turned for years attempting to do so and failed quite badly and now has to sustain the pain of attempting to right the broken system.


healthcare by its very nature has to be a community approach. The young and healthy must subsidise the ill, so that they themselves when they get ill , will be subsidised by their young.

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Old 20-12-2013, 17:01   #70
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
... citation? I find that stat hard to believe.



This thread is pretty much on track with all the previous healthcare debates here on CF.

I appreciate that many in the US are unhappy with the ACA. I also appreciate that a certain party and adherents are spending uncounted millions trying to make sure that everyone knows why they should be unhappy with the ACA, even to the point of putting up fake and misleading websites. Hmmm... if the ACA is so bad, why all the effort to tell you this?

The ACA IS flawed, and speaking as a professional programmer, that web rollout was... embarrassing. Jeez. There's two incontrovertible facts about the ACA: It's better than anything that was put forward by the GOP ( a no-brainer, cos the GOP put forward... nothing), and it's better overall than what went before.

Why are so many US cruisers upset with the ACA? Gee, I dunno... why ever would a cohort of overwhelmingly white, middle or upper-class US males be against it?
If the ACA is so good why so many exemptions for big businesses and unions...oh and i don't know, congress...

I'm more upset with the government making me purchase something or pay a fine just for the sake of living.

Also I don't understand how people treat Obama like a king but hated bush when they are one in the same...both are war criminals. I am anti government, but maybe that's because I've worked for them, been to war for them, had friends next to me die under them, all in the name of freedom that is being taking away.

I also served beside the Canadians and the British, both great groups of guys and we all agreed our governments sucked.

I don't understand why people still trust the government with lives of the people when they continue to mistreat their people.
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Old 20-12-2013, 17:02   #71
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by AirBoyzT View Post
I don't understand how anyone is ok with anyone but themselves being involved in their personal lives. Why we still continue to put up with income taxes (at least in the USA) is beyond me.
One could also ask why a pacifist (or isolationist) should have to contribute 25% of their tax dollars to the machinery of warfare?

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...I could do without the government.
But I guess you were ok with it growing up, and when you made your pile from investments?
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Old 20-12-2013, 17:04   #72
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
... citation? I find that stat hard to believe.
The truth is out there...but when it goes against what people want to believe...they simpley don't chose to believe it! President Obama said today in his presser that 1Million have signed up for Obamacare....over 5 million have been given cancelation notices. Again...the truth is out there for those with eyes open.


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Government is not mandating cost. That was my whole point.
Sorry, but the Government IS setting the costs...but hey...believe what you want because these days everyone does.

At least you are not making racists attacks like other posts in this thread...whew...

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I don't understand why people still trust the government with lives of the people when they continue to mistreat their people.
Amen Brother!
But hey...the NSA spying under Bush was Impeachable...but under Obama....psst....you are a right-wing-radical-tea-party-terrorist for even raising concern. As for me...just counting the days until it's back to Mexico where it's safe.
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Old 20-12-2013, 17:08   #73
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by AirBoyzT View Post
I don't understand how anyone is ok with anyone but themselves being involved in their personal lives. Why we still continue to put up with income taxes (at least in the USA) is beyond me.

At least we have sailing in common...I could do without the government.
Well, I wold certainly appreciate it if some people in the government would stop informing me that the decision to bear a child or not, isn't mine. But health insurance has nothing to do with the government, other than being a condition of remaining in the country. In this it is no different than any other tax we are expected to pay, or insurance we are expected to keep. Like auto insurance, the intention is to keep the personal impact to me at a minimum, should something horrific happen.
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Old 20-12-2013, 17:10   #74
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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If the ACA is so good why so many exemptions for big businesses and unions...oh and i don't know, congress...

.
One of the many indications that you actually have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you take a few minutes to look up that "congressional exemption"?
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Old 20-12-2013, 17:13   #75
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Originally Posted by AirBoyzT View Post

If the ACA is so good why so many exemptions for big businesses and unions...oh and i don't know, congress...

I'm more upset with the government making me purchase something or pay a fine just for the sake of living.

Also I don't understand how people treat Obama like a king but hated bush when they are one in the same...both are war criminals. I am anti government, but maybe that's because I've worked for them, been to war for them, had friends next to me die under them, all in the name of freedom that is being taking away.

I also served beside the Canadians and the British, both great groups of guys and we all agreed our governments sucked.

I don't understand why people still trust the government with lives of the people when they continue to mistreat their people.
With the greatest respect , this is a very simplistic naive view. People always " diss" their government , yet they vote in similar politicians every time and show remarkable reluctance to elect radical candidates.

I see you have no view of the " common good " or as Spok puts it ," the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few " , a person without a car still pays tax which done goes on roads. A person with no kids still pays tax , some of which goes to schools , what different about healthcare.

As to a " fine for just living " you have heard of tax , I hope so cause you pay a lot of them in the US.

As to war criminals. I'm not aware Obama started any wars, Bush certainly did. But I don't think it's germane to a discussion on healthcare anyway.

I don't think people in western countries and most developed nations believe they are " mistreated" by their Governments. Thats a complete overstatement , Certain sections have certain grievances but that's normal. You can't keep all of the people happy all of the time issue
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