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Old 21-12-2013, 07:24   #241
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..but officer, my heroin dealer warned me that if I didn't buy these packets he would fine me. He also said that if I liked my heroin...I could keep it.
Lol thats funny
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Old 21-12-2013, 07:27   #242
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

In my opinion there is a lot of bull talked about "poor quality, long wait" non-US healthcare. It is a cloud of misinformation promoted by the insurance companies, the medical establishment and Obama!!
My recent experiences are those of my mother (UK) and sister (Malta). My mother (87) had a recent should joint replacement on the UK NHS. Did not take long to schedule (6 months - elective surgery) and end result is great. My sister required an emergency hip replacement after a fall while on vacation in Malta. Superb facility, excellent care and a few weeks later she is up and around and nearly fully recovered. Both surgeries did not cost the recipients one penny for surgery, hospital stay or medications. Now tell me this is second rate care!!!
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Old 21-12-2013, 08:14   #243
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
...just marveling in the truism that those who don’t know history are certain to repeat it. It's already been tried....the workers’ paradise....I don't remember it working to well when the masterminds running the system can’t keep bread on the shelves and toilet paper on the rollers.
If your grasp of history is equivalent to your reading comprehension, you should tread more carefully. In no way did I describe a centrally-controlled or planned economy. Just a guaranteed income, instead of a crate of band-aids. This idea simply recognizes the inefficiency of the current approach, and the fact that without a strong consumer base, you will never regain a stable economy and the inequalities and abuses will only deepen.

Also, your history apparently doesn't equip you to recognize that the current situation is a new place, without a historical precedent. The economy is now global, for better or worse. We are starting to bump up against the finite limits of the planet, while the rest of the nations struggle to catch up to the first world. We are running out of new resources and markets to exploit, and in the US you are starting to cannibalize your own populations to maintain unrealistic profit levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayside Bertie
I started my business 30 yrs ago in the basement of my parents home with $300 my grandmother gave me. I bought a brief case, a phone, some stationary and business cards. My mom dropped me off at my first sales appointment because I didn't even have a car. I picked up the account.
It's a heartwarming story. Especially the part where your parents had a basement and your grandmother had capital to loan.

I don't mean to belittle the effort you no doubt put in... but with education and upbringing you got a good start, yes? and if you didn't start a business you'd no doubt have snagged a degree and made out in some other career.

btw - one man, one vote is "socialist". "all men are created equal" is "socialist". These rights would not exist if there wasn't a strong state to declare them and back them up. Where do you want to draw the line?

Are we done yet? I need to finish some shopping. Doing my bit for the economy...
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Old 21-12-2013, 08:25   #244
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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In no way did I describe a centrally-controlled or planned economy. Just a guaranteed income
ha ha ha...sure...and who would then "guarantee" this income level...ha ah ah ...the central PLANNERS. "All Pigs are Equal. Some Pigs are more Equal"--Animal Farm

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Also, your history apparently doesn't equip you to recognize that the current situation is a new place, without a historical precedent..
Yep...exactly as I said, so thanks for confirming. This idea that times are new, we are smarter now, it's never been seen before, it's the same old game of Central planning and control....same things all the Mastermindes of history have told their people as a way to take control of their lives for their own good.

Those who can't/won't understand the history of economics and tyranny are the first to lay down their freedoms and get in line for their free lunch....too bad it always turns out to be a turd sandwitch.
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Old 21-12-2013, 08:37   #245
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Gobble gobble gobble.
Right. Ignore my points, don't do any research... just pull the string, keep saying the same empty crap, throw in a reference to a 80 year old book... winning strategy.
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Old 21-12-2013, 08:38   #246
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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btw - one man, one vote is "socialist". "all men are created equal" is "socialist". These rights would not exist if there wasn't a strong state to declare them and back them up...
Your comment shows a very poor understanding of the United States founding documents. Which is typical these days.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed


Now this says nothing about all men getting an equal share of th Pie, the same wage, the same boat, the same car. It says that in the eyes of God and the law they are equal...a FAR cry from Socialism.

Then for your next whopper....
Rights do NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT, but rights come from the creator and no Government can take away what they have not made and granted. The idea of rights coming from the King/Government was the exact concept the founding fathers of the US wanted to avoid. If rights came from the King/Government then they could be taken away at the King/Governments whim. The reason we create Governments is to protect theses rights and lets not foget the next part....

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


We have now reached a point where over 70% of Americans now view Big Government as one of the biggest threats to the Country and freedom.
A revolution has already started, which is why the Government wants the power to spy on it's people...

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
Gobble Bobble Gobble....
Right. Ignore my points, don't do any research... just pull the string, keep saying the same empty crap, throw in a reference to a 80 year old book... winning strategy.
"gobble gobble gobble" translates to...opps...someone didn't bow down to the king...I have to attack and belittle him now rather than address his points. It's the "game over" when the three space ships have been blown up by the missles...time to put another coin in the till.

Thanks by the way...you just won me a Bet with another member for $1. I'm not the only one who has read "Rules for Radicals" I see.
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Old 21-12-2013, 08:45   #247
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post

It's a heartwarming story. Especially the part where your parents had a basement and your grandmother had capital to loan.

I don't mean to belittle the effort you no doubt put in... but with education and upbringing you got a good start, yes? and if you didn't start a business you'd no doubt have snagged a degree and made out in some other career.

btw - one man, one vote is "socialist". "all men are created equal" is "socialist". These rights would not exist if there wasn't a strong state to declare them and back them up. Where do you want to draw the line?

Are we done yet? I need to finish some shopping. Doing my bit for the economy...
Thank you … and yes I "pass it on" whenever I can. I agree with the one man one vote thing but unfortunately, by allowing our Federal Government to borrow money, the votes are all now "purchased" by the favors the politicians extol on those voting for them. The result is bankruptcy for the USA. And .. its what the people want:-)
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Old 21-12-2013, 09:06   #248
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by Bayside Bert28 View Post
I started my business 30 yrs ago in the basement of my parents home with $300 my grandmother gave me. I bought a brief case, a phone, some stationary and business cards. My mom dropped me off at my first sales appointment because I didn't even have a car. I picked up the account.

I often think of the plight of the "line worker" in my business. These are the folks who work hard for medium money and will NEVER become an Executive or high level manager.

All I can say is when the government puts the screws to me with high taxes, regulation and frivolous lawsuits, I turn right around and put the screws to the staff with stagnating wages, reduced benefits and more rigid work rules. The more SEVERE the government gets with me the more SEVERE I get with the staff. They don't quit because all the other employers are doing the same thing. Sad thing is that the Hard Work Medium Money staff are the exact people voting for more government and they are paying the price. What a vicious circle.

I'm just an observer. What I am observing sucks for the people of the USA.
Are you taking home $1,000,000 a year while your average worker makes $2,500 a year? If not, you haven't reached the level of "rich" that most of the "poor" are talking about.

Although you could be. Are you putting the screws to your line workers, keeping their pay so low that they are running out of money by the end of the month while you work on paying off your third house? That's also the level of rich that seems inappropriate.

It's the people at the upper end of middle class that are panicking about everything. They worry about not buying that second car or taking two vacations to Hawaii this year. What they need to do is get their heads out of their behinds at look at the crazy wealth inequality in the country. That guy on the end of the chart - the one standing below four or five columns of money. He's the problem. The next few people have the goal of reaching his level, but it will never happen, there isn't enough money left. Without some change in the system, everyone except the top few will continue to get poorer.

It's not the "middle class" that will stop buying the hamburgers if they go up 15 cents, it's the other 60% of the country.
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Old 21-12-2013, 09:30   #249
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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That guy on the end of the chart - the one standing below four or five columns of money. He's the problem. .
So let’s say we accept the premise that people making over $1,000,000 are the problem and reason we have poor people today. Got it.

Now let’s take, as in with pitchforks and guns, all of the money away from these evil-doers holding down the poor. Well maybe that is a little harsh, so forget the pitchforks and gun thing, let’s just pass a law that caps the top earning level at $1,000,000 because really, who needs that much money anyway.

Problem solved right? The Government would then take that extra money and divide it up evenly to the deserving population…right and we all lived happily ever after…..


Look, we both agree that the banker class getting the bailouts, getting the QE Infinity money printing pumping are screwing us and that both political parties in DC are in on the game. But until someone can come up with a system that has not already been shown to fail worse than the system we have...where do we go from here?

Who will “spread the wealth around” as Obama said, fairly? Who will not just spread it around to their friends and backers? Can you show or give an example of a system with the stated goal of equalizing life’s outcome that is a more fair way that doesn’t then create a ruling class elite where the rules don’t apply to them and ultimately don’t become tyrants? I can’t find such an economic system or model…and that’s the problem with the class warfare argument. It gets people all hateful and angry at the evil rich (who actually turns out to be anyone with more money than they have) but how does being angry at the guy making $1,000,000 help the guy at McDonnalds making $7.45/hr and screwing up my burger order at the drive through? Do we pay the burger flipper $20/hr and then the poor that BUY the cheap fast food can’t afford it anyway.


Being against something isn’t enough. Because history has a bad track record of people that were just against something losing their freedoms for a bogus solution, even if the problem they were against was real and legitimate.
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Old 21-12-2013, 09:38   #250
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

from nerdwallet:
Quote:
McDonald's

CEO: Donald Thompson
Average hourly worker wage: $7.73
CEO hourly compensation: $9,247 (1,196 times the average worker wage)
Overtime to CEO pay: 3.86 months
The world’s largest hamburger chain has the dubious distinction of having the biggest wage gap between its CEO and its workers. Like Walmart, the chain has become a focal point of the efforts of fair-wage advocates. In October, a labor group released a recording of a McDonald’s worker help-line operator instructing an employee on how to apply for food stamps. Over the summer, a 2010 budget sheet released by McDonald’s for its employees drew public outrage for its impracticality: among other things, the budget included income for a second job (implying workers needed one) and failed to factor in costs like groceries, gas, and childcare.
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Old 21-12-2013, 09:41   #251
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

And your solution is...because without a solution it's pretty meaningless to show the Mds CEO compared to a burger flipper that can't even get my order right at the drive through.

Take away the CEO's pay 95% of it and spread it around to the entire McDs hourly workers. Now how much would that then give the average worker more per hour?

McDs employs about 1.5 Million people and the Evil CEO made a salary of $8.75 million (Google search)
So then each employee would get...drum roll.....$58.33 more per year if you took away the evil CEO’s pay.

See this is where the class war comparison numbers take you...meaningless but it stirs up emotions and gets the working poor hating and blaming their plight on something that will not make their lives better. And more importantly, it gives politicians someone to HATE and BLAME to the voters...elect me and I will cut the Fat CEO down to size. Really....and what political party will actually cut CEO Pay...ha ahaha If you want to help someone at McDs…tell them not to drop out of school, do drugs, etc…
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Old 21-12-2013, 11:05   #252
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Your comment shows a very poor understanding of the United States founding documents. Which is typical these days.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed


Now this says nothing about all men getting an equal share of th Pie, the same wage, the same boat, the same car. It says that in the eyes of God and the law they are equal...a FAR cry from Socialism.

Then for your next whopper....
Rights do NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT, but rights come from the creator and no Government can take away what they have not made and granted. The idea of rights coming from the King/Government was the exact concept the founding fathers of the US wanted to avoid. If rights came from the King/Government then they could be taken away at the King/Governments whim. The reason we create Governments is to protect theses rights and lets not foget the next part....

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


We have now reached a point where over 70% of Americans now view Big Government as one of the biggest threats to the Country and freedom.
A revolution has already started, which is why the Government wants the power to spy on it's people...



"gobble gobble gobble" translates to...opps...someone didn't bow down to the king...I have to attack and belittle him now rather than address his points. It's the "game over" when the three space ships have been blown up by the missles...time to put another coin in the till.

Thanks by the way...you just won me a Bet with another member for $1. I'm not the only one who has read "Rules for Radicals" I see.
Again with the lack of reading comprehension.

I said nothing above, and in fact have NEVER said anything about "all men getting an equal share of th Pie" Nothing. That's a fabrication of yours alone.

And: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the purfuit of Happineff. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

If you were at all the student of history you pretend to be, you'd know exactly how radical those propositions were at the time of the US's birth. And how hard other Americans have fought to take those to their logical extensions - women and non-whites. The STATE is what keeps these rights intact.

and
Quote:
Rights do NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT, but rights come from the creator
That was the prevailing excuse at the time, but it was still a radical proposition, and no matter "where" you think the rights come from, it takes a strong and just government to maintain them. Not everyone buys into the Creator thing, btw... do they not have rights, then?

But as I said - this government/anti-government debate is merely a sideshow to occupy the dull, while other forces carry on strip-mining the consumer base.
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Old 21-12-2013, 11:11   #253
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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but unfortunately, by allowing our Federal Government to borrow money, the votes are all now "purchased" by the favors the politicians extol on those voting for them. The result is bankruptcy for the USA. And .. its what the people want:-)
The "borrowed" money goes to prop up corporations so that they can continue to pay bonuses and dividends, with a special lane for arms and munitions. If you say the printed money is supposed to be going to the US people... I'd say epic fail, cos ... look around you. Do they look like they're thriving?

Follow the money. Who's thriving? Who's buying the votes? Hint - google "citizens united".

You really think this is what the US people want?
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Old 21-12-2013, 11:16   #254
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Look, we both agree that the banker class getting the bailouts, getting the QE Infinity money printing pumping are screwing us and that both political parties in DC are in on the game. But until someone can come up with a system that has not already been shown to fail worse than the system we have...where do we go from here?

...

Being against something isn’t enough. Because history has a bad track record of people that were just against something losing their freedoms for a bogus solution, even if the problem they were against was real and legitimate.
All true. But you're the one lacking any input other than "government... baaad!"
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Old 21-12-2013, 11:20   #255
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Re: U.S. Healthcare Pirates

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That was the prevailing excuse at the time
Absoluely Fasle.
Other Governments were founded on a top down approach of the rights coming from Government. Not as the US was founded with the rights flowing upward from the people TO the Government, by the consent of the Governed. Once you turn this around as you attempt, that right come from Government, it's over amigo...becaue if rights are granted to people from Government, then they can easilty be taken away.


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no matter "where" you think the rights come from, it takes a strong and just government to maintain them.
Man, my work isn't done here today I see. It takes a strong and FREE people to protect their rights...if you are counting on Government to do it...then you might as well put on the chains now friend, because that is where you will end up....history...you have to know and understand what the founding fathers knew, that Governments ALL grow and consume power. It is the PEOPLE that protect their rights and freedoms most often from the very Government they established.

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Not everyone buys into the Creator thing, btw... do they not have rights, then?
A man not believing in a stop light is still protected by the stop light he tells himself does not exist. Believing in God/Creator/Evolution...it doesn't matter because an athiest has natural law protecting his rights just as a muslim, christian, jew, or liberal does. Believing in God is not a prerequsite for having rights inherent to Man.

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But as I said - this government/anti-government debate is merely a sideshow to occupy the dull, while other forces carry on strip-mining the consumer base.
You have said a lot of things, but that doesn't make them true in the world of reality. The ballance of power between the Government and Individual is the story of History, Economics, of Civilizations and to not understand the importance of keeping the power in the hands of the people rather than the mastermind planners of Government (that can't even launch a website by the way) is to surrender the battle. Or as the case here appers, to not even know/understand a battle is always going on in the back ground with every rule, law, tax, regulation. How is it that the bankers have the power to screw the little guy?....bingo...Government gave them that power. Government bought and paid for by the special interests. It's really not that hard, but in today's culture, poor education system, and lack of critical thinking skills beyond the feel good sound bytes sometimes the shadows of truth are hard to make out.

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All true. But you're the one lacking any input other than "government... baaad!"
No, you just chose to not accept the input that entrusting Government to manage the society, economy, etc is a bad idea, as shown by History. You set up a false choise of having No Government power vs All Government power. This isn't new, progressives and Statists know that they need to have their ideas forced down with Government power on the people. Governments are a necessary evil, the debate we are having, which you seem to be avoiding, is how much power to give said Government, where that power comes from, and what history teaches us about relying too much on Government to do for people what they can more affectively do for themselves. Quaint Gobble Gobble quips is a nice dodge....but in a society that gives the power over the Government to the people, all Gobble Gobble will get you is Turkey.
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