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Old 24-03-2019, 17:19   #1
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The hate of realty

Okay, I need to ask. Why do so many sailors hate on owning real estate?

The feel I get is a lot of cruisers are stable financially. But they decide to "sell it all" and head of into the sunset.. which is all fine and dandy, it just leaves me horribly curious as to why. I understand propert tax, insurance, maintenance etc and that is all a draw on on your purse strings. Yet, that excuse does not always hold water.

If you do not have a significant emotional attachment to your house and are "okay" to sell it and sail.. why not rent it out? Now I am assuming you have decent equity in the house, that selling helps financially keep going longer or indefinitely. But with that equity in the house a renter could help provide that cash flow (yes damages, vacancy rate issues etc all exist, but let's normalize and assume the average case wont be a nightmare). So if your house is paid off all that goes in your pocket, if your place isnt you are still making equity and less into your pocket.. but still.. it confuses me.

Now the argument of cash now vs later doesnt make sense either.. cause you can pull out 80% of the equity in your house.. buy whatever you need to get outfitted and go. Or if you want that money in investments (this is more specific to canada as I do not know taxation in other countries), you can pull out the money from your house and put it into an rrsp and the interest becomes a write off. So you have some money from the renter in your pocket, the rest paying your mortgage and you have an investment account to boot...

Is it property managers vs lack thereof? Is it simply just a cultural thing amongst sailors? Or is there something more?

Full disclaimer big part of my retirement plan is renting houses out. Father does it, friends do it as well, it just seems simple and straightforward to me.. yes nightmares do happen occasionally but you plan and budget for it.. I feel like being a cruiser and a landlord would be a perfect match if you have a property manager, when a place goes vacant you can plan to visit that location meet with old friends for a bit then go back to the boat and continue on.

Any rate, what am I missing? Yes I am a curious cat I find it interesting how people fund this lifestyle.

RR
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Old 24-03-2019, 17:42   #2
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Re: The hate of realty

I love real estate, been buying, renting, flipping, whatever, all good.
If I was going for a long cruise, would hire a property manager, or management company and go sailing.
Easy.
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Old 24-03-2019, 17:45   #3
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Re: The hate of realty

Haha yeah, I am of the exact same opinion.

Just every Youtuber sailor is hating on realty and a few posts on here as well I was flabbergasted lol
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Old 24-03-2019, 17:55   #4
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Re: The hate of realty

I live in my f-i-l's house. He is 98. We moved here to support him 3 years ago. He hasn't fixed a thing here in 15 years. It is falling apart but he will spend NO $ on it. He's not poor. He's just got this old man's fear of not having money. I hate realty. At least his.

We sold our house of 20 years over 10 years ago. Too much maintenance. And we did take good care of it with upgrades. But new roofing is not inexpensive.


Look, the answer to your question is basically a personal one. I've lived in houses I've loved and had no trouble keeping up with. We all need either a roof or a deck over our heads.


Renting has its issues, in both ways. So does owning.


Plus, as discussed in that other topic Mike brought up yesterday, some folks like or need "ties," and for others it's the last thing they want.


I can't wait to get out of this dump.


So I can get my own dump!
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Old 24-03-2019, 19:03   #5
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Re: The hate of realty

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Originally Posted by TheRailRoader View Post
Just every Youtuber sailor is hating on realty and a few posts on here as well I was flabbergasted lol
I think I can elucidate the theory that underpins the phenomenon that you reference. I've got a degree on this subject, but I don't think one needs a degree on the subject to recognize the non-sustainability of current realty practices occurring in most of the developed Western world.

Let's assume that you believe in capitalism like I do...that the market should determine the value of things...not the government...not friends on the government. Still with me?

In school I learned about rentier "capitalism," rentier state theory as evidenced in 3rd world countries, violent revolution that is universally associated with shedding off a rentier state systems (e.g. American revolution, French revolution; more recently countries that decolonized and countries that "nationalized" domestic industries that had been run by foreign interests that effectively siphoned locally produced wealth off-shore). Everything in this paragraph really not debatable as having occurred or not with respect to economic history. Still with me?

So when you learn to recognize the nexus between rentier capitalist practices (which are not really capitalistic, with respect to the tenets of the second paragraph of my response above) and the real-world consequences of rentier capitalism communities on land, then at minimum you get a sour taste in your mouth when thinking about the "realty" subject. Still with me?

I think a lof of people who are not familiar with all the academic theory aspect otherwise do consider it legitimate to take from the community while giving back really nothing. What's the difference between being a king in a castle accepting payments from far off colonies and being a person on a yacht accepting payments from far off properties with your name on the title. Kings and rentier 'capitalists' have their means of justifying their behavior, but it's really plain to see the erosion in the communities that occurs when/where the money developed inside a community is funneled outside the community. The infrastructure erodes until it's no longer sustainable and bad stuff ensues.

---

Elsewhere in this forum there have been polls asking sailors about the Myers-Briggs personality type. Many people don't believe in the MB/Kant type personality testing stuff. If/when you do believe in the MB stuff...you note that the MB types the dominate in the polls are the personality types that generally score above-average in analysis over space and time. Accordingly...not surprising that sailors more recognize, than the average community, phenomenon like the problems of rentier capitalism and thus more prone to hating realty.
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Old 24-03-2019, 19:40   #6
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Re: The hate of realty

Ok, what I recall of Marxism from university, is filled with holes. So do forgive me.

But if I recall correctly the rentier capitalism theory, deals with monopolizing a resource with no benefit to the populace. So being a landlord, yes, you would be drawing wealth from the property.. but, the renter would be recieving a major benefit as well. Most renters, can not afford to buy, so they either live at home, on the streets or rent. The revolution's really only came when the costs demanded outweighed the benefit recieved, which could be argued as a corruption or social issue rather then a finance one. People generally don't like an oppressive, greedy, corrupt leader and act accordingly.

I would also say taxes, paid to corrupt governments are hardly comparable to rents being paid to landlord for a place to live. Same with slaves working in fields etc not exactly apples to apples. Albeit if we do hold that this theory is true, could you not then expand it to include the stock market where one gains a profit through no effort of their own and likely in another country? So if they sell their home and buy stocks.. then this wouldn't be the case again anyways, no? Would they then not be guilty of rentier capitalism and run risks there? I also do not think inherently monarchies etc are evil, or even rentier capitalism really, as long as the population gets benefited from the dues paid as they do with rentals.

But that is an interesting theory, I would be interested to see if it was true. From what I have seen, I have not witnessed any such complex thought for selling their homes and going sailing. It was far more carefree. I also think about the years of propaganda of a house on a hill, with a picket fence as part of the American pie and so many have been programmed to want to buy a home, could it not be simply rebelling against the American dream per se?

Sorry mate, you got me thinking. Full disclaimer I am pro small government, more personal accountability. I
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Old 24-03-2019, 19:59   #7
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Re: The hate of realty

Which would you prefer? Paying monthly rent in a decent house or living like this for "free"?


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Old 24-03-2019, 20:33   #8
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Re: The hate of realty

I don't get the title of this thread. I don't have an emotional love or hate attachment to real estate. In the poll thread I listed the rational reasons we sold our house. I also showed that even in a high growth market like Seattle the housing market hasn't grown much more than the stock market. Every cruiser is going to be in a different situation. For some keeping their place is pretty obvious, for others selling is pretty obvious. The rest just have to roll the dice.
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Old 24-03-2019, 21:32   #9
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Re: The hate of realty

Railroader, you may be missing a bit of knowledge: for some of us, especially long term overseas cruisers, we are more interested in freedom from responsibility (as in real estate ownership and management) than in maximizing income or net worth. If we have adequate funding without that particular source, we'd prefer to be free!

And blithely saying "get a good property manager"... well, you may choose to not believe me, but we've seen several folks whose cruises were terminated due to malfeasance or incompetence or laziness on the part of such "managers", and far more who have had continuing heartache from their property back home.

So, our decisions about our finances are not rooted in hate or ignorance, but rather in having different values than you do.

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Old 24-03-2019, 21:50   #10
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Re: The hate of realty

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Railroader, you may be missing a bit of knowledge: for some of us, especially long term overseas cruisers, we are more interested in freedom from responsibility (as in real estate ownership and management) than in maximizing income or net worth. If we have adequate funding without that particular source, we'd prefer to be free!

And blithely saying "get a good property manager"... well, you may choose to not believe me, but we've seen several folks whose cruises were terminated due to malfeasance or incompetence or laziness on the part of such "managers", and far more who have had continuing heartache from their property back home.

So, our decisions about our finances are not rooted in hate or ignorance, but rather in having different values than you do.

Jim
Sorry, I did not mean to demean, insult or belittle the decision. I do and truly believe that everyone has their own truths. What works for me, may not or will not work for someone else. Due to personalities, experiences and where a person is in life or geographically even.

I am just a curious person, I understand issues with property managers.. but generally people are not all bad.. so I would think that would be the minority of cases. I find the bad, nightmare issues, tend to be crowed loudly and often. Whereas the good times, do not get news time.

I am not trying to be high and mighty or some such silly thing, I just wanted a conversation in order to understand the mentality or psychology behind what seems to be a trend amongst cruisers. Or if it is not a trend and cruisers do do rentals.

I am sometimes bad at picking my words or tact, for that I am sorry. I am just a curious chap.

RR
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Old 24-03-2019, 22:10   #11
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Re: The hate of realty

Different strokes for different folks. Itís not a question of the right way, or the wrong way. There is no Best option for everyone.

A lot of cruisers choose to keep land property, and most of those rent it out to generate income. Others divest themselves of all, or most, land holdings. In this latter group (of which I am one), the drive seems to be accessing wealth, along with simplicity and freedom.

If recent polls here have any validity, the split between CF members seems to be pretty close to 50:50. About 1/2 maintain a land home, and about 1/2 get rid of it all.

Land home, yes or no? - Page 8 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 24-03-2019, 22:18   #12
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Re: The hate of realty

Haha completely missed that thread, very interesting read.
Thanks
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Old 24-03-2019, 22:27   #13
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Re: The hate of realty

[can't edit previous post...should have read "people who are not familiar with all the academic theory aspect otherwise do NOT consider it legitimate to take from the community..."]


It must be recognized that if a government has a problem with poor people having affordable housing, it has options on a continuum bounded by 2 extremes:
1) develop an government infrastructure to help poor people...one by one...with their housing problems
2) develop an infrastructure where private industry takes care of the poor people housing problem

In EITHER instance, the government is going to pay out money to take care of the issue.
The supermajority (99%?) of current rentier capitalists (including commercial realty) became the same only by means of government backed loans, tax breaks, policy exceptionalism, etc. Many people genuinely don't understand or simply don't like to admit/accept this.

So when the government takes the role, this takes a lot more government employees. Bigger headache for legislators starting from day 1. Where the private industry takes the role the government gives tax breaks, economic incentives, policy exceptionalism, etc. On day 1 it's a load off the legislator's mind. Which model is easier to sell in which countries?

When the government takes the role, you don't get a rentier capitalist class. All the money spent on rent either earns the poor person some resemblance of capital...and/or at least stays in the community/locale that the poor folks are living. There is otherwise at least soft incentive for the poor folks to maintain their community (i.e. instead of "driving it like it's a rental").

When private industry takes the role...ordinarily a rentier capitalist class is created, the poor person never earns capital, and there is typically no obligation for the rentier capitalist to physically remain in the poor community/local. In fact there ordinarily are tax incentives, breaks, etc, that results in the rentier class wealth people doing things like buying expensive property far away from the poor community/local...not further supporting the primary infrastructure to the degree that "keeping money local" provides.

Reading about the concept of the universal basic income may be of interest. Why the top 0.1% thinks it's a good idea. If/when it comes about...it should dispense with much of the realty rentier phenomenon.
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Old 25-03-2019, 05:43   #14
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Re: The hate of realty

I have not observed any "hate" of owning real estate at all. Just because someone decides to sell their house, somehow that means they "hate" real estate?


I have owned rental property before. There are a lot of headaches associated with it, even if you hire a professional property manager (who will, of course, substantially cut into your profits). I might be willing to own rental property again sometime, but for now I am happy without the headaches. Obviously, I can understand why someone might want to just sell their house and be done with it.


That still doesn't mean that they "hate" real estate.
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Old 25-03-2019, 05:52   #15
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Re: The hate of realty

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I have not observed any "hate" of owning real estate at all. Just because someone decides to sell their house, somehow that means they "hate" real estate?


Plus not all cruisers equate having and increasing equity as the be all and end all to living a happy contented life
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