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Old 15-06-2015, 17:41   #31
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

State-room.. a sleeping cabin, or small berth, detached from the main cabin of merchantmen or saloon of passenger vessels... so sez Admiral Smyth.

I believe one old name for the 'heads' was 'seats of ease'
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Old 15-06-2015, 18:05   #32
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

Wifey B: If stateroom is pretentious, then isn't it also pretentious to project a superior knowledge as a grammatician in arguing against it? Language evolves and those of us who are students of language are often bothered by it. However, ultimately, it's a form of communication and what is accepted and works then seems to me to be ok.

Apartments and condos are now often referring to rooms by their purpose. A bedroom is now "Sleep". A living room is now "Relax". And others use different terms. To me, at first, Port and Starboard seemed sort of sailor pomposity but then I thought how many times I'd seen people who couldn't remember their left from their right and would say left and point right and then change it to "oh, this left." Of course the reason other words were required is there is no convention on left and right to keep them from changing based on which way you're facing.

We don't use the word "yacht" and just own boats. Not ships. Not vessels. Not yachts. Just boats. But we're not offended when others use such words nor will we argue over what is and isn't a yacht as it doesn't really matter to us. A boat by any other name is still a boat, as Shakespeare might say were he into such things...well, and alive of course.

Now, see cordage sounds pretentious to me, but just because it's not a word I normally use. I'm too busy figuring out all the words with different meanings depending on which side of the pond one is on. I never thought of "rubber" as an eraser until an Aussie friend. And let's not even discuss "fanny". We must not go there...
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Old 15-06-2015, 18:18   #33
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Wifey B: If stateroom is pretentious, then isn't it also pretentious to project a superior knowledge as a grammatician in arguing against it? Language evolves and those of us who are students of language are often bothered by it. However, ultimately, it's a form of communication and what is accepted and works then seems to me to be ok.

Apartments and condos are now often referring to rooms by their purpose. A bedroom is now "Sleep". A living room is now "Relax". And others use different terms. To me, at first, Port and Starboard seemed sort of sailor pomposity but then I thought how many times I'd seen people who couldn't remember their left from their right and would say left and point right and then change it to "oh, this left." Of course the reason other words were required is there is no convention on left and right to keep them from changing based on which way you're facing.

We don't use the word "yacht" and just own boats. Not ships. Not vessels. Not yachts. Just boats. But we're not offended when others use such words nor will we argue over what is and isn't a yacht as it doesn't really matter to us. A boat by any other name is still a boat, as Shakespeare might say were he into such things...well, and alive of course.

Now, see cordage sounds pretentious to me, but just because it's not a word I normally use. I'm too busy figuring out all the words with different meanings depending on which side of the pond one is on. I never thought of "rubber" as an eraser until an Aussie friend. And let's not even discuss "fanny". We must not go there...
Easy on the cordage I was a professional deck hand into my 30's, which is as worker man as worker men come. No fancy nautical sciences degree for this cat, just a high school diploma. I wrote my 3rd mate's exam because I was tired of chipping and painting and cleaning heads. Cordage is a term used more by seamen than their officers.

I wrote chief mate and master because if I wasn't going to have fun anymore, I may as well make money.

Sent from my SGH-I547C using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 15-06-2015, 18:35   #34
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

Well, port and starboard also don't mean the same thing as left and right. Left and right are relative to the speaker by default, or otherwise by whomever is specified (i.e., "your left"). Port and starboard are relative to the vessel, and unchanging in all circumstances aboard, so they're more clear.
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Old 15-06-2015, 19:35   #35
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Well, port and starboard also don't mean the same thing as left and right. Left and right are relative to the speaker by default, or otherwise by whomever is specified (i.e., "your left"). Port and starboard are relative to the vessel, and unchanging in all circumstances aboard, so they're more clear.
Wifey B: That's what I said....that's why they're necessary. Line and rope don't mean the same to me. Now bedroom and stateroom do and kitchen and galley and bathroom and head..and in public facilities, restroom. But even that makes sense as you're not going to be bathing in there so not bathrooms. Of course "rest" is quite a euphemism but guess they couldn't call them pee and poop rooms or something worse.

Then there are homographs. Ok, people...that's just words spelled the same but different pronunciations and meanings. Like read, bass, bow, minute, learned, sewer, wound, does, wind, and sow.
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Old 15-06-2015, 20:09   #36
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Wifey B: If stateroom is pretentious, then isn't it also pretentious to project a superior knowledge as a grammatician in arguing against it?
Touche!
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Old 15-06-2015, 20:32   #37
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

I am concerned that Dock Head is on some sort of egalitarian binge here. There are no ropes on my boat. I don't carry superfluous bits of cut cordage. I don't keep rolls of stuff to no purpose. Certainly things can be re-purposed I have plenty of light duty dock lines that were sheets. There are no State Rooms on my boat but there is a V berth. There is no kitchen, there is a galley. There is no left or right but there is port or starboard. All these terms are descriptive and nautically correct. The fact that correct language is not understood by non sailors is irrelevant to what is correct. Finally, about once a year my boat deserves to be called a yacht (when the brightwork is caught up). During the rest of the year she's a boat.
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Old 15-06-2015, 20:45   #38
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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I am concerned that Dock Head is on some sort of egalitarian binge here. There are no ropes on my boat. I don't carry superfluous bits of cut cordage. I don't keep rolls of stuff to no purpose. Certainly things can be re-purposed I have plenty of light duty dock lines that were sheets. There are no State Rooms on my boat but there is a V berth. There is no kitchen, there is a galley. There is no left or right but there is port or starboard. All these terms are descriptive and nautically correct. The fact that correct language is not understood by non sailors is irrelevant to what is correct. Finally, about once a year my boat deserves to be called a yacht (when the brightwork is caught up). During the rest of the year she's a boat.
LOL. If you read the first post, you will see that I am not against correct nautical terminology -- on the contrary.

You might want to keep some extra ropes around on your boat, however. They come in awfully handy on a sailing vessel

And don't you have left and right on board? Do you really say your starboard hand? Would you say "the hatch to my port side"? As others have said, port and starboard are just different concepts from left and right, with a different reference point, and don't replace them.


Concerning "ropes" -- in my opinion, there are three stages of enlightenment concerning this word:

1. "Should I pull on that there rope, or this here rope?" Land person with no clue what any of the lines do or are called.

2. "Shall we go to the chandlery and buy some line?" Person has learned that you can't say "that there rope", with regard to some line in use, and mistakenly believes that the word "rope" should be banned completely.

3. "Take that rope there and use it for a dock line."
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Old 15-06-2015, 20:53   #39
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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There are no ropes on my boat.
Same here.


I follow Paul Kamen's recommendation from March 2010:


Them control lines are all "strings".


Heavy displacement monohulls with laterally wide keels, especially double-enders like English Tony's live-aboard thingie on C dock, are "crab-crushers".


Shackles and such like are kept in the "jewellery box/jewelry box".


Paper charts are spread out in the "office".


The double bunk is in the "fornicatorium".


See Lee Helm's Modern Sailing Lexicon in Paul Kamen, "Max Ebb - Words of Wisdom," Latitude 38, March 2010. (attached pdf)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Words of wisdom (March 2010).pdf (259.3 KB, 26 views)
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Old 15-06-2015, 21:01   #40
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Touche!
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:18   #41
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

Dock head,

Don't forget about all the ropes on a boat that are actually ropes. Like a bolt rope, foot rope, bell rope, and tiller rope...
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:24   #42
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Dock head,

Don't forget about all the ropes on a boat that are actually ropes. Like a bolt rope, foot rope, bell rope, and tiller rope...
And soap on a rope!
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:54   #43
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Some people don't care much about words -- and that's a perfectly reasonable life choice.

Other people do -- and that would be me, probably as the result of spending most of my adult life struggling with new languages, plus being the disappointingly inarticulate descendant of four generations of writers.
........................

[COLOR="rgb(46, 139, 87)"]Now to "stateroom". How in the world did this get into our vocabularies? State Room is a Room of State, a grand room in a palace, possibly stretched to cover a really grand cabin on a really big ship, made for the queen, like the presidential suite in a top class hotel. [/COLOR] How could anyone think that this could be an appropriate term for a tiny, dark, spartan, cabin in a little, plastic sailboat?

My guess is that it's marketing BS evolved through several generations of constantly inflating absurdity. From Room of State on the royal yacht, it became a pretentious term for expensive cabins on transatlantic steamships, on to cruise ship cabins, and finally some over-exuberant advertising copywriter got hold of it for some boat brochure, somewhere, from which this disease spread to the lips of some cruisers.

To my ear, you might as well call the en-suite master bedroom in a three bed, two bath ranch house, the "royal apartments", and the little eat-in kitchen the "banqueting hall". Does it not sound like that to anyone else?

Whew, glad I got that off my chest!

Writers, eh...so you come from a Navy family Writer History

Stateroom has been in use afloat for a very long time... see my note above about what Admiral Smyth says in his 'Sailors Word Book'.

In the British mercantile tradition 'quarters' could be ashore or afloat, crew quarters, officers' quarters... not for a particular space but for the general bit of the ship that group inhabited...ashore you would have married quarters.

One that is now largely in disuse is focsle ... as in "the firemen's focsle" or "the sailors' focsle" . That was used for their living quarters even if they were in fact living in the poop.

Use of 'stateroom' by professionals? Well I was a professional and I used to use it.... typically applied to the super-dooper deluxe 1st class cabins on real 'liners'.
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Old 16-06-2015, 05:36   #44
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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Dock head,

Don't forget about all the ropes on a boat that are actually ropes. Like a bolt rope, foot rope, bell rope, and tiller rope...
Indeed!


And can you imagine someone saying "let's go buy a few feet of line, and make a new tiller rope" !
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Old 16-06-2015, 09:51   #45
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Re: Terminology -- "Stateroom"

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So if you ask for a berth on the radio, for example, you will often be asked "is that a motorboat, or a yacht"?
Well, actually you'd be asked "is that a LAUNCH or a yacht? (in the UK at any rate)

When I was growing up I learned that "Cordage" was a general term used to denote ropes of any size braid etc.

In Danish (just to confuse the issue a bit) rope is "reb" but on a boat - all ropes etc are "linje" (lines). Very thin pieces of rope (twine) are called "snor", although with the advent of Dyneema, much of this has also become lines.

Further up, someone finally gave an explanation of when a boat becomes a ship. It was noted that when a boat carries a smaller boat - it's a ship (therefore submarines are boats). This is very interesting to me because I've always wondered.

Since my 40 footer carries a dinghy - is it now a ship?

I would say not - so the question still remains - when is a boat a boat and when is it a ship?

Just to make the question more interesting - (the distinction by the way is the same in danish) Almost anyone will correctly refer to a vessel as either a "boat" or a "ship" - there is almost no disagreement .

But how do we unconsciously arrive at that - and in complete agreement?

Sorry for the thread hijack
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