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Old 06-02-2007, 16:20   #16
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Originally Posted by Benny
I think the picture that Chris wanted is on page 5 of Alen Wheelers photos on the photo gallery area of this site. It is a red hulled sloop surfing over a large wave going over a sand bar - is this right Chris?
If that is right, I'll pull this thread and we can all go see that boat in Alan Wheeler's gallery. As I was saying, we can't have that link as it stands (since it redirects to material that doesn't quite fit the standards here).
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Old 06-02-2007, 16:34   #17
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Hummm. Let's see if I can re-post it.
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Old 06-02-2007, 16:35   #18
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Old 06-02-2007, 17:36   #19
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Hunted around on thet site for a while and did'nt see any boat's................................But found a few places where you could lose one.

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Old 06-02-2007, 19:52   #20
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We are probably looking at the backside of the wave so I would not call it surfing. Especially with the luffing main and no headsail. Pretty wild picture though.
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Old 06-02-2007, 20:12   #21
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Take a Second Look

I've seen this pic before amid discussions centering on it's authenticity. Note a few aspects that seem to defy Newtonian physics:
  1. The only sail up is a luffing main. There is not enough wind to drive a boat at hull speed, let alone to let it fly over the crest of this wave, as is shown by the relatively quiet water's surface.
  2. The flaked headsail is lying loosely on the foredeck. There isn't even enough wind to worry about lashing it down, let alone a tailwind to blow it over the rail.
  3. The wave appears of insufficient height to propel a displacement hull at a speed necessary for the boat to surf at all, not to mention clearing the entire deep fin keel. A displacement hull surfs when it is literally falling down the face of a very large wave. From where is this boat falling?
So it's not moving forward with great velocity, and it's not moving down with great velocity. The only way a displacement hull could even theoretically defy gravity for a brief moment would be because of inertia, but this boat doesn't have any.

There were other incongruities discussed, but they elude me at the moment. Maybe you guys can point some out. This was Photoshopped.

Fun to look at though.

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Old 06-02-2007, 21:40   #22
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How about it Wheels - it's your picture - real or not?
I believe this could happen going up and over a steep breaking wave - maybe he's motoring with the headsail down and main luffing while traversing the tough part of the bar.
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Old 06-02-2007, 22:49   #23
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Oh man did I miss all the action?!?!?! It sounded like the link could have been interesting to say the least.
Yes the photo is real. It was a photo (not my own) I posted a heck of a long time back now on the old CF. We were discussing something in relation. I think it may have been bar crossings. If the photo's of the fishing boat crossing the Greymouth bar have a similar time stamp, then that was indeed it. The Photo is of a yacht crossing a river bar entrance. Hence the shape of the wave, the fact that there is no wind and that the sail is not set. The boat simply had it's nose pointed high on the crest and the shot was taken as she was dropping off the back. The reason why she is so out of water is the speed of the wave passing underneath. She isn't flying because of hull speed, she has just enough forward motion to keep straight.
Not something I would want to try, but the wors't I have been is having 50% of the hull out of water. 45ft 26t keel boat, thats some feeling. I only wish someone could have snapped a photo of that.
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Old 06-02-2007, 23:30   #24
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just a normal day at the Mana bar
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Old 06-02-2007, 23:31   #25
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:57   #26
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Yeah and on a ruff day, you get time to anti-foul :-)
No thanks, you can keep bars. They scare the heck out of me.
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Old 07-02-2007, 06:28   #27
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Man, I feel robbed, I saw the photo from the very first post and skipped the link entirely. Now where is the back button...
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:09   #28
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I'm going to have to vote "not Photoshopped." If you do open the image in Photoshop and blow it up to search for clues of image manipulaiton, there aren't any to be found.

Bar crossings are weird... never really had that experience. So what happens? The wave is transformed by the water being shallow at the bar? This causes the wave's amplitude to increase like at a beach? Do you get breakers there sometimes?
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Old 07-02-2007, 11:36   #29
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The main danger from bars is the river water rushing out. Sean remember that video of the poor guy going under the Golden gate bridge to close to that shore line were the tidle flow is extreme and he got well and truely nailed.
The list of dangers is as follows. Please add to it if I have missed anything.
Firstly, the outflow of water. This makes several dangers. The water flow changes rapidly and often times can even reverse depending where you are on the wave cycle, how deep your keel is as the wave flow can "slide" over the river current below it. Many boats broach in this situation. they pick up speed with the wave, surf down the back then suddenly hiot the river flow against them. The hull can not handle the speed and the bow digs in and around you go. This also means you can lose stearing control and end up in a part of the bar that you don't want to be.
Wind direction. Just like wind against a tide, an good onshore wind will cause the wave to stand steeply.
Tidal flow. Tide against river flow will also make waves stand up.
Bar. This of course is a navigation hazard. Some bars can close a mouth of to passing over till the tide is high enough. Sand bars are constantly changing position and depth. The shape and depth of bar alters how the wave works. Waves can often rise up very abrubtly and because the bottom is constantly changing, the wave behaviour is also constantly changing. Just because the waves behaved one way the day before, does not mean they wil behave the same the next.
and yes, the bottom causes a wave to build just like coming onto a beach.
Another major danger is the bottom and the trough of the wave. If the bar is shallow, you can get slammed onto the bottom with great force. If that didn't cause damage, the next wave will, as you are now stationary and possible at the wrong angle to take the next wave.
Because of all the above, the sea conditions on a bar can change rapidly and to extremes. If a bar is borderline passible, it often pays to wait a while as even 30 minutes or so can make a big difference. It also pays to wait and study the bar before you cross. Look for wave cycles and what they are doing.
Sometimes bars can be hard to read. Just because a bar has low breaker sets, does not mean it is not dangerouse. Sometimes large waves can infact be quite passible. The photo above show's that. I doubt many of us would attempt waves of that size.
I stated above that I would never attempt a bar crossing. that is refering to crossing in my boat I have now. I have been over many bars in small boats, have made beach launchings in Cray boats on the east coast (some Kiwis will know what that's about) and so now enough to knwo I aint' trying it in my current heavey displacement 6'9" keel boat.
Plus i was younger back then :-)
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:05   #30
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Don't believe it

I'll cast my vote. The photo is a hoax. Like Sean, I tood a close look in photoshop. Aside from the obvious physics issues, you can see where the shrouds, backstays, lifelines on the forward section, etc. have been removed while blending the images.
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