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Old 15-11-2015, 06:36   #301
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Do you fish? I don't see any difference between hunting and fishing in this regard.

The greatest paradigm shift a mind must make is to enjoy a bucolic rolling farmland scene and then go pick out some meat at the grocery store.

Well, I guess that would be a total disconnect rather than a paradigm shift...

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Old 15-11-2015, 07:03   #302
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

A static and pristine natural environment where nothing dies is a dead environment. Millions of violent deaths take place under our boats, in the forest or wherever living things are found. That's how nature works. Without death/killing nothing could be alive.
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Old 15-11-2015, 07:36   #303
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

What our urbanized and Disneyfied population whose primary exposure to nature is what they might see on TV do not realize, is that one cannot stockpile wildlife.

Controlled and regulated hunting, especially in the North American wildlife management model that was proposed and perpetuated by Theodore Roosevelt and enhanced by Aldo Leopold and his colleagues, has resulted in the most successful rebound of diminished game animals in the world.

There are more deer, more turkeys, more geese, more elk, and more antelope than there were when the 1900's started.

An excellent overview is this paper from 2012 produced by the Wildlife Society, which consist of biologists and other professionals mandated with the management of wildlife in Canada, United States, and Mexico. I have attended a number of their conferences due to my involvement in conservation organizations.

http://www.emwh.org/pdf/conservation...nservation.pdf

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Old 15-11-2015, 09:51   #304
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The greatest paradigm shift a mind must make is to enjoy a bucolic rolling farmland scene and then go pick out some meat at the grocery store.

Well, I guess that would be a total disconnect rather than a paradigm shift...
In reality, farming is far more destructive to the natural ecosystems of this planet than hunting. We convert vast tracts of complex ecology into massive elementary mono-cultures that are mostly supported by external "artificial" services like irrigation, fertilizers and oil. Hunting can wipe out entire species, but farming destroys entire ecosystems. Takes a much greater paradigm shift to avoid seeing the "bucolic farm" for what it really is.

I'm not a land-animal hunter yet (but I do fish, which is the same thing). I've never understood how some people can kill another living thing for fun or sport, but I have no issue with those who hunt for food -- quite the opposite in fact. And in that light, baiting makes more sense than chasing around trying to be fair to the hunted animal. If the point is to eat, then it makes sense to get the job done as efficiently as possible.

If, however, you are doing it just b/c you like the thrill of the hunt, take a camera with a 50mm lens. It takes far more skill, effort and intelligence to get a good photo than it does to pull the trigger or shoot an arrow.
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Old 15-11-2015, 10:06   #305
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
.....

If, however, you are doing it just b/c you like the thrill of the hunt, take a camera with a 50mm lens. It takes far more skill, effort and intelligence to get a good photo than it does to pull the trigger or shoot an arrow.
I have lots of pictures of moose, deer, a pileated woodpecker and birds this year.

I don't have any meat in the freezer. It is much easier to take those pictures, as you don't need to be drawn for tags, nor do you need to get permission to take the pictures, nor are you restricted to certain times of the year.

And one goes on quite the diet on existing on the electrons that get used.



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Old 15-11-2015, 10:11   #306
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
It wasn't that long ago there was a McDonald's ad which featured a hamburger, coke and fries with change from your dollar.


Whaddya mean, no inflation?
that was from the early seventys during football season. It was referred to as the "quarterback ad"

If this wasn't long ago, then you must be what 200 years old to refer to 40 years as "not that long ago"
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Old 15-11-2015, 10:16   #307
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
In reality, farming is far more destructive to the natural ecosystems of this planet than hunting. We convert vast tracts of complex ecology into massive elementary mono-cultures that are mostly supported by external "artificial" services like irrigation, fertilizers and oil. Hunting can wipe out entire species, but farming destroys entire ecosystems. Takes a much greater paradigm shift to avoid seeing the "bucolic farm" for what it really is.

I'm not a land-animal hunter yet (but I do fish, which is the same thing). I've never understood how some people can kill another living thing for fun or sport, but I have no issue with those who hunt for food -- quite the opposite in fact. And in that light, baiting makes more sense than chasing around trying to be fair to the hunted animal. If the point is to eat, then it makes sense to get the job done as efficiently as possible.

If, however, you are doing it just b/c you like the thrill of the hunt, take a camera with a 50mm lens. It takes far more skill, effort and intelligence to get a good photo than it does to pull the trigger or shoot an arrow.
You missed my point about one enjoying being immersed in the rolling feed pastures, while not making the connection to where one's food meat comes from. I wasn't making any attempt to discuss the sustainability or eco-friendliness of farming.

It is certainly possible to both enjoy the thrill and skill of the hunt, and eat what one catches. Hunting and fishing are fun sports for me.

I asume that your comparison of skill, effort and intelligence regarding camera vs. gun/arrow/spear/hook is not backed up by much personal experience. At least, that is the only conclusion that makes sense to me. Or you are truly a terrible photographer.

Do you fish only with baited fish traps in carp or catfish ponds? If you just wanted food, that would be the most sensible and productive method.

I bet you do enjoy being in a rowboat on a still lake in the evening or early morning carefully casting and working a lure, or walking and fishing a trout stream through beautiful lands attempting to match a hatch and present it as real.

And I bet the fish caught thusly taste even better to you.

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Old 15-11-2015, 10:21   #308
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
In reality, farming is far more destructive to the natural ecosystems of this planet than hunting. We convert vast tracts of complex ecology into massive elementary mono-cultures that are mostly supported by external "artificial" services like irrigation, fertilizers and oil. Hunting can wipe out entire species, but farming destroys entire ecosystems.
I agree:



Eat meat (mostly fat).
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Old 15-11-2015, 11:12   #309
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You missed my point about one enjoying being immersed in the rolling feed pastures, while not making the connection to where one's food meat comes from. I wasn't making any attempt to discuss the sustainability or eco-friendliness of farming.
I guess it was more Guy's comment I was responding to regarding the leap of paradigm needed. To view hunting as destructive while missing the massive impact bucolic farms have on this planet is to miss the reality of the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
It is certainly possible to both enjoy the thrill and skill of the hunt, and eat what one catches. Hunting and fishing are fun sports for me

I asume that your comparison of skill, effort and intelligence regarding camera vs. gun/arrow/spear/hook is not backed up by much personal experience. At least, that is the only conclusion that makes sense to me. Or you are truly a terrible photographer.
I fish (occasionally), I don't hunt land animals (yet), but I've been on hunts with friends. I used to live in Northern Ontario, and before that central BC. I've travelled the wilds of Canada, and I've been there when the trigger is being pulled. I've also been a professional photographer. I think I have a pretty good understanding of the skill levels required. So I'm not sure if you think I'm qualified to comment now. Up to you.

My perspective is that if it is the hunt that you enjoy, then you can achieve the same thing with a small lens camera vs a gun. That's why I specified a small (~50mm) lens. I think it is harder to get a good, tight, sharp photo with a small lens (sorry AVB, that's a nice pic, but it's not really what I'm thinking ) than to get a good shot off with a decent rifle. Perhaps not with a bow ... I've no experience with bow hunting, so I'll back away from that.

My point (if there is a point here), is that I don't understand the need to kill for fun. I understand the skill and challenge of the hunt, but you don't need to kill something to achieve those things. You (and I) do need to kill to survive, and I've got no problem whatsoever with that. In fact, I think hunting (including fishing) is a more honest and real way of getting our protein than going to a supermarket. It's just that it's not feasible on our densely populated world for everyone to hunt wild game.

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Do you fish only with baited fish traps in carp or catfish ponds? If you just wanted food, that would be the most sensible and productive method.
I've never heard of such things ... never had any access to them yet. But yes, I would certainly fish in these ponds if I needed the food and that was the easiest option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I bet you do enjoy being in a rowboat on a still lake in the evening or early morning carefully casting and working a lure, or walking and fishing a trout stream through beautiful lands attempting to match a hatch and present it as real.
You see, for me you can stop your sentence at "early morning..." I love being on a still lake (a canoe would be more appropriate for me), feeling the early morning mist. I don't have any need to cast a line or work a lure. Paddling on a calm lake is enough. I fish to eat. I find little joy in the specific activity of killing, but I like to eat and I appreciate the fresh food.

My observation is that hunters and fishers (who are mostly men), use the act of hunting and fishing as the necessary reason to getting off into the semi-wilderness. Men (mostly) seem to need this excuse to legitimize what they really want to do, which is to spend time in the company of good friends out on the still water or quiet forest.
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Old 15-11-2015, 11:20   #310
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

When one is engaged in the act of gathering your own food, whether in the garden, hunting fields, or a sea in search of the wiley salmon or other fish, you are intimately engaged with nature and the natural environment. If you are a good steward then you don't take more than you can eat, you don't kill for sport ( I have never done so.) and you are careful about how you treat the land that you plant your crops in, you engage in each of these acts with a mind to insuring that your great, great grandchildren will be able to provide for themselves as you have, you also have the responsibility to teach the next generation how to engage in wise stewardship of these resources. You are a part of the equation, not a spoiler of the nature. As my father used to say "When the gun goes off, that's when the fun is over". There are those who eat from grocery stores that have no connection to the acts that provide them food and no knowledge of what is involved in taking care of the land for future generations, and no control over what goes into the things that they eat, how can they have any connection with Mother Earth, Ocean? They don't even understand that they are supporting those who lay waste to our planet?
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Old 15-11-2015, 11:22   #311
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by Miniyot View Post
that was from the early seventys during football season. It was referred to as the "quarterback ad"

If this wasn't long ago, then you must be what 200 years old to refer to 40 years as "not that long ago"
Nah, I'm only 199.
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Old 15-11-2015, 11:24   #312
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

My perspective is that if it is the hunt that you enjoy, then you can achieve the same thing with a small lens camera vs a gun. That's why I specified a small (~50mm) lens. I think it is harder to get a good, tight, sharp photo with a small lens (sorry AVB, that's a nice pic, but it's not really what I'm thinking ) than to get a good shot off with a decent rifle. Perhaps not with a bow ... I've no experience with bow hunting, so I'll back away from that.
'Probably not a good idea to hunt Russian boar that way.
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Old 15-11-2015, 14:56   #313
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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'Probably not a good idea to hunt Russian boar that way.
Yummy ... Russian boar: 10 Best Wild Boar Meat Recipes

Hey Ken, if it's the challenge you want, then camera shooting would give you even more of a good thing .

But to bring this back to something close to the thread's purpose about high cost crap: fishing equipment is expensive. All the doodads, special lines, lures and rods are all crazy expensive. Of course my main fishing rod is my original K-Tel Pocket Fisherman, so I'm not the best gauge of current equipment :



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Old 15-11-2015, 15:28   #314
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

Yup ......
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Old 15-11-2015, 15:32   #315
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Re: Stupid, Ridiculous Prices for Stuff

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My observation is that hunters and fishers (who are mostly men), use the act of hunting and fishing as the necessary reason to getting off into the semi-wilderness. Men (mostly) seem to need this excuse to legitimize what they really want to do, which is to spend time in the company of good friends out on the still water or quiet forest.
Naah.
I prefer going off for the day on my own fishing........
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