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Old 29-09-2010, 20:51   #16
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The solution is to allow everyone to protect themselves whilst on the open waters, and punish those who violate others' safety with absolute God-like retribution. Fire and brimstone, and all that.

Outside of that, you can't fix a society you don't understand. Sometimes, even understanding it won't help because you simply won't agree with the way they think or want to run their country. Just try to stay out of each other's business inside their own borders, but when in 'neutral' territory the rules should allow for people to defend themselves proactively, if necessary.
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Old 29-09-2010, 21:53   #17
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I agree with NotQuiteLost on this one. Very well stated.
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Old 29-09-2010, 23:06   #18
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Very well put!
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Old 30-09-2010, 00:45   #19
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As I understand it, piracy in Somalia is still one of the best ways locals can make a living. And not many outsiders have a real inclination to stop them.

There are three factions in Somalia. The weak west supported government, a set of strong warlords / pirates, and the even harder Islamic fundamentalists.

If that last group got the chance they'd stop the piracy tomorrow, but what they'd replace it with does not suit our western world. If the west really intervenend and wiped out the warlords / pirates, the others would fill the vacuum created.........call me a cynic but it could seem our govt's don't want to risk that change.

Luckily there are many places to sail in this world, and it is easy enough to avoid the region until either the fundamentists take over or the western world discovers enough new minerals to justify real intervention.

Until then I am afraid not much will change. Sadly.

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Old 30-09-2010, 01:30   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotQuiteLost View Post
The solution is to allow everyone to protect themselves whilst on the open waters, and punish those who violate others' safety with absolute God-like retribution. Fire and brimstone, and all that.

Outside of that, you can't fix a society you don't understand. Sometimes, even understanding it won't help because you simply won't agree with the way they think or want to run their country. Just try to stay out of each other's business inside their own borders, but when in 'neutral' territory the rules should allow for people to defend themselves proactively, if necessary.
Thats a bit 'Wild West' and is ok to the point where your weapons arnt as powerful as their weapons. If you carry weapons aboard and are cruising from one part of the world to another, that then causes other problems with port authorities. 10 Somali fishermen with AKs will take more protecting against than a pump and .38 can provide.
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Old 30-09-2010, 02:13   #21
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Thats a bit 'Wild West' and is ok to the point where your weapons arnt as powerful as their weapons. If you carry weapons aboard and are cruising from one part of the world to another, that then causes other problems with port authorities. 10 Somali fishermen with AKs will take more protecting against than a pump and .38 can provide.
Hey, don't get me wrong. If someone rolls up, armed to the teeth with bad intentions and you're not able to get away, you're in big trouble. And as a solo sailor, I can relay just how it feels to have a heavily crewed boat swinging back and forth in your wake, sizing up the risk/reward situation. Thankfully, my rail is about six feet off the water

I understand there's no easy solution to this thing. But I get so sick of hearing people (nobody I've seen here, to be clear) talk about disarming the world cruisers first. I mean, we're the people who should be disarmed LAST, if at all.

Oh well, it's a hot button issue, for sure. Also, as you suggest, it's not a simple question. I just rebel when it's suggested that I shouldn't be allowed to defend myself.
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Old 30-09-2010, 04:21   #22
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Is this thread about sailing/boating anymore?
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Old 30-09-2010, 06:51   #23
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Is this thread about sailing/boating anymore?
No.


Do the Somalis have "the right to bear arms?"

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Old 30-09-2010, 15:25   #24
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The solution is to allow everyone to protect themselves whilst on the open waters, and punish those who violate others' safety with absolute God-like retribution. Fire and brimstone, and all that.
The problem my friend is indentifying the enemy, if a pirate attacks you , are you suggesting you bomb his whole town in retribution!!!.

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Old 30-09-2010, 16:22   #25
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There are more than one of these places on the planet. They export the chaos and desperation they live with on a daily basis. They believe in the solutions that work for them....because they work. They have embraced these things and they are not sitting around waiting to be rescued from their "fate". The effective thing to do is reduce their capability to solve their problems using their current methods. Stone age problem solving should occur in stone age conditions.
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Old 30-09-2010, 16:31   #26
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Stone age problem solving should occur in stone age conditions.
do you mean the US marines should club them to death or what???

dave
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Old 30-09-2010, 16:34   #27
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In the epilogue of a copy of Mark Bowden's Blackhawk Down:

"It was a watershed," said one State Department official, who asked not to be named because his insight runs so counter to out current foreign policy agenda. "The idea used to be that terrible countries were terrible because good, decent, innocent people were being oppressed by evil thuggish leaders. Somalia changed all that. Here you have a country where just about everyone is caught up in hatred and fighting. You stop and old lady on the street and ask her if she wants peace, and she'll say, yes, of course, I pray for it daily. All the things you'd expect her to say. Then ask her if she is willing to for her clan to share power with another in order to have that peace, and she'll say, 'With those murderers and thieves? I'd die first.' They want victory. They want power. Men, women, old and young. Somalia was the experience that taught us that people in these places bear much of the responsibility for things being the way they are. The hatred and the killing continues because they want it to. Or because they don't want peace enough to stop it."

Sitting back in the world that I live in, with the values on life and respect for others that I have and I beleive share with most if not all of the rest of you reading this, it's hard to imagine a place in the world like this, with people like this. But how else can you explain it?
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Old 30-09-2010, 16:48   #28
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do you mean the US marines should club them to death or what???

dave

Certainly not. But nation building activities should be off the table entirely. Simply remove the entire Somali ability to go to sea in any manner whatsover. Whatver means they choose to use should be dealt with and removed if it has consequences outside their borders.
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Old 30-09-2010, 17:15   #29
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Waou , What a bright idea ? Any others like this ?


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Except the aid we currently give them ends up in the wrong hands:

BBC News - Contractors divert Somalia aid, UN report says

I'm not generally a fan of war, but for $3 million, maybe you buy 3 cruise missiles and sink 3 suspected mother ships while in port. I bet that goes farther than giving them $3 mill to buy RPGs for their "fishing economy".


"Even worse, WFP food aid and profits from it are said to end up in the hands of armed groups, including Islamist militants and other armed groups undermining the weak Somali government. Profits from the food aid trade were even used to buy arms, the report indicated."

from: afrol News - UN confirms Somalia food aid corruption
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Old 30-09-2010, 17:18   #30
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Is this thread about sailing/boating anymore?
`
I agree with you. You are right.
There is one thing I will never understand. Why do people want to see other countries look alike and behave like theirs? Is this what they understand by "travelling" , "meeting others"...
You do not like Somalis. Go elsewhere. End of the discussion.
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