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Old 06-07-2014, 20:05   #301
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Re: Slapping Halyards

Wire cutters? Is that why wine corks and discharge ports are never the same size? So more wire cutters can be sold?
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Old 06-07-2014, 20:23   #302
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Yes, there are boundaries, and they are mostly culturally-based. Your absolutism over property rights is typical of a western capitalist world view. This self-evident truth (to you) does not have the same standing the world over. You, of all people, should appreciate this. You're attempting to use an ad absurdum argument with your bike example. It might be more valid if you used hanging goat entrails or human feaces.

I've already said numerous times that stepping on board someone else's boat to quiet clanging halyards would be an extreme circumstance. But if other options were exhausted, someone who continued to impose their auditory pollution on everyone else would deserve nothing less than an equal imposition on their property rights.

The problem with current "rights" discussions is that they are perceived in terms of absolutes. Rights are intertwined with responsibilities. Too many of us have forgotten the second part.
It is a human condition in communication to provide extreme absolute examples so one might explore the boundaries one is talking about, define grey area (if it exists) or even to challenge one's paradigm.

It is also an internet argument phenomena to start pigeon-holing one's protagonist with labels. If you label me a "western capitalist" it is done with the intent to polarize the discussion around "good" and "evil" presuming being a western capitalist is evil(?) - I could just be an a**hole.

I am not so sure the norms are cultural as much as they are societal. Society, over time, defines the norms of behavior. I would say that "property" is pretty well defined worldwide. So this (CF) society, on the whole, says boarding someone's boat is OK in exceptional circumstances.

I agree there are grey areas and those who know me IRL know that I am an easy going guy who does stow his halyards.

BTW - I agree with you. There are exceptional circumstances that would justify invading someone's property. I don't know where my grey area starts but I would likely not board someone's boat to stow a halyard, even if I was doing him a favor by saving his paint, halyard or whatever other detriment might occur.

I have already stated I like the sound of slapping halyards, buoy bells and cawing seagulls - it's why I choose to be near the water.

Your introduction of faeces introduces an interesting twist - I have seen boats with dog crap on the foredeck and littered with all the crap I mentioned previously. It never occurs to me to board the boat, clean it and do society a favor. Just like it never occurs to me to board a boat and "cut," "haul up the mast" or reroute halyards no matter how pissed I am. I suppose my grey area is still around "imminent threat" to the boat or others for which fire and sinking lay well within my boundary.

I just wonder as the boundary moves where does it stop?

(Slight sidebar - While my boat has been on the hard for quite a while, someone decided that I didn't need my spinnaker pole any longer climbed the ladder, entered my salon and took it. I feel invaded and quite pissed off. Someone made the boundary decision that unused boat equipment is fair game for acquisition. So I have some recent experience with property boundary creep. What the idiot doesn't know is that spin poles are like fingerprints, they are all different. I've made a police report and I'll see it someday - there are only so many 26 foot boats it will fit around here. We'll see what happens.)

In regards to goat entrails, that's a non-sequitur in this part of the world. Goat entrails end up in stews not hanging from the shrouds - Yum!
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Old 06-07-2014, 20:30   #303
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Re: Slapping Halyards

A week ago we left a note on a boat concerning its slapping halyards. (It was soooo peaceful in the marina except for them.) This weekend the noise was gone. Whether the owner or a neighbor took corrective action is unknown.
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Old 06-07-2014, 20:44   #304
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear View Post
Apart from the annoying sound, slapping halyards mean movement. Movement means chafe. Its poor seamanship.
Sailors should consider this;

Apart from the chafe, this unnecessary noise often prevents the occupants from hearing a new noise of something coming loose or fouled on anchor rode, that could do some serious damage.

Same philosophy as keeping a dry bilge.
That's how you discover a new leak!
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Old 06-07-2014, 21:38   #305
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
It is a human condition in communication to provide extreme absolute examples so one might explore the boundaries one is talking about, define grey area (if it exists) or even to challenge one's paradigm.

It is also an internet argument phenomena to start pigeon-holing one's protagonist with labels. If you label me a "western capitalist" it is done with the intent to polarize the discussion around "good" and "evil" presuming being a western capitalist is evil(?) - I could just be an a**hole.

I am not so sure the norms are cultural as much as they are societal. Society, over time, defines the norms of behavior. I would say that "property" is pretty well defined worldwide. So this (CF) society, on the whole, says boarding someone's boat is OK in exceptional circumstances.

I agree there are grey areas and those who know me IRL know that I am an easy going guy who does stow his halyards.

BTW - I agree with you. There are exceptional circumstances that would justify invading someone's property. I don't know where my grey area starts but I would likely not board someone's boat to stow a halyard, even if I was doing him a favor by saving his paint, halyard or whatever other detriment might occur.

I have already stated I like the sound of slapping halyards, buoy bells and cawing seagulls - it's why I choose to be near the water.

Your introduction of faeces introduces an interesting twist - I have seen boats with dog crap on the foredeck and littered with all the crap I mentioned previously. It never occurs to me to board the boat, clean it and do society a favor. Just like it never occurs to me to board a boat and "cut," "haul up the mast" or reroute halyards no matter how pissed I am. I suppose my grey area is still around "imminent threat" to the boat or others for which fire and sinking lay well within my boundary.

I just wonder as the boundary moves where does it stop?

(Slight sidebar - While my boat has been on the hard for quite a while, someone decided that I didn't need my spinnaker pole any longer climbed the ladder, entered my salon and took it. I feel invaded and quite pissed off. Someone made the boundary decision that unused boat equipment is fair game for acquisition. So I have some recent experience with property boundary creep. What the idiot doesn't know is that spin poles are like fingerprints, they are all different. I've made a police report and I'll see it someday - there are only so many 26 foot boats it will fit around here. We'll see what happens.)

In regards to goat entrails, that's a non-sequitur in this part of the world. Goat entrails end up in stews not hanging from the shrouds - Yum!
the occasional cry of a gull or the gentle lapping of water surely can be soothing...the repetitious, constant clang is more like something you might hear in Guantanamo Bay in your cell....but that's OK cause you get a splash of water in your face to...just like sailing.
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Old 07-07-2014, 04:54   #306
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Slapping Halyards

So yesterday the people on one of the bangers showed up at his boat and I asked him if he could secure his lines so they weren't banging against his mast. He went below and got a couple of bungee cords and put them on the line, but he didn't tighten them so they still are banging. He was on the boat for hours after so had to know they were still banging just as much .

I think Dan needs to come take care if this as I've been trying 5 years now. :-(


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Old 07-07-2014, 05:27   #307
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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I think Dan needs to come take care if this as I've been trying 5 years now. :-(


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Let me call the boys and I'll be right over...

"We've been warning you about those god-damned halyards for 5-years now, Frank. You brought this on yourself. And what the hell kind of knots are those, Pete? You call yourself a sailor? I see work like that again and you'll be next!"
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:35   #308
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
It is also an internet argument phenomena to start pigeon-holing one's protagonist with labels. If you label me a "western capitalist" it is done with the intent to polarize the discussion around "good" and "evil" presuming being a western capitalist is evil(?) - I could just be an a**hole.

I am not so sure the norms are cultural as much as they are societal. Society, over time, defines the norms of behavior. I would say that "property" is pretty well defined worldwide. So this (CF) society, on the whole, says boarding someone's boat is OK in exceptional circumstances.
Sorry Dan, I wasn't playing any argumentative games with the whole "western capitalist" label, and I certainly am not arguing good vs evil (I don't believe in either, but that's another discussion). I was simply pointing out that not all societies treat rights the same way. Western capitalist societies place property rights near the top of the sacrosanct list. It's inherent to capitalism, so it makes sense. Trespass is a form of property-right infringement. Imposing loud noise on your neighbours infringes other rights. It's always at the clash of rights where things get interesting (your right to swing your fist stops at my nose, etc...).

In societies that elevate property rights above most others, it would be an extreme violation to step on someone's boat without permission to do anything, let along to quiet a slapping halyard. In other places this is less of a violation ... that's all I was saying.

The other point I was making is that rights come with responsibilities. It seems to me too many of us have forgotten this. Too often you hear the argument, often around property rights, that goes: "the 'ell with anyone else! It's my property and I can do whatever I want with/on it!" This view of rights is inconsistent with any form of communal living, be it in a city or on a boat in a crowded anchorage or marina. It's about realizing you are not the only one who has to live in this space. It's about basic respect for others.

For me this is what this is all about; respect for others. It doesn't matter that you love to hear clanging halyards; clearly many (most?) don't. It's the same as if you were blaring your music across the anchorage; you might like it, but others don't.

If you must have the sound of clanging halyards in your ears, then buy a set of headphones and make a recording.
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Old 07-07-2014, 06:24   #309
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Sorry Dan, I wasn't playing any argumentative games with the whole "western capitalist" label, and I certainly am not arguing good vs evil (I don't believe in either, but that's another discussion). I was simply pointing out that not all societies treat rights the same way. Western capitalist societies place property rights near the top of the sacrosanct list. It's inherent to capitalism, so it makes sense. Trespass is a form of property-right infringement. Imposing loud noise on your neighbours infringes other rights. It's always at the clash of rights where things get interesting (your right to swing your fist stops at my nose, etc...).

In societies that elevate property rights above most others, it would be an extreme violation to step on someone's boat without permission to do anything, let along to quiet a slapping halyard. In other places this is less of a violation ... that's all I was saying.

The other point I was making is that rights come with responsibilities. It seems to me too many of us have forgotten this. Too often you hear the argument, often around property rights, that goes: "the 'ell with anyone else! It's my property and I can do whatever I want with/on it!" This view of rights is inconsistent with any form of communal living, be it in a city or on a boat in a crowded anchorage or marina. It's about realizing you are not the only one who has to live in this space. It's about basic respect for others.

For me this is what this is all about; respect for others. It doesn't matter that you love to hear clanging halyards; clearly many (most?) don't. It's the same as if you were blaring your music across the anchorage; you might like it, but others don't.

If you must have the sound of clanging halyards in your ears, then buy a set of headphones and make a recording.
Right on all counts, unfortunately there are a lot of selfish people who only consider themselves and the hell with anyone else. I was anchored in a bay in the apostles once where a powerboat had a small portable Honda generator out on the swim platform running until about 10pm while they sat inside with the door closed watching tv and presumably the air conditioner on, when they shut it down so THEY could go to bed the silence was incredible. Selfish inconsiderate bastards is what they are. Most of the worlds problems would evaporate if all children were taught from the time the are become teachable to consider others even if they may not think the same as you.

Steve.
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:37   #310
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Re: Slapping Halyards

sailorboy, you don't seem to be on the path to enlightenment. Or an anthropologist, psychiatrist, or psychologist. No wonder you've acquired enough money to BUY a YACHT.

Your neighbor quickly procured the bungees and deployed them AND didn't scowl at you at all. And you hold that against him?

Now, step back and consider that he did three very good positive things very quickly (which would be a fourth good thing) and all you do is castigate him. Is that nice? Is that fair?

Open your third eye and observe the kind neighbor again. Note the quivering pea-green color of his aura. He's doing the best he can, but he's obviously afraid of something. Deeply ashamed of something. And to the trained observer (I was a trained ethno-exo-bio-psychiatric social worker before I sought enlightment and gave it all up for saffron robes) it is immediately obvious that you neighbor is a grand fellow, who simply never had the advantage of wealth. His poverty forced him to buy cheap bungee cords, which never come with printed or illustrated instructions, and he simply has no idea of how to use them!

Yes, the poor soul is really doing his best to please you, but he just has no grasp of what to do with those bungees. He's only seen videos of people jumping off bridges with them, and he's probably terrified that you'll ask him to do something like that.

So, brew a nice pot of a delicate green tea. Prepare a tray of cucumber sandwiches. Put on a clean robe and thank him for his courtesy, but then find a diplomatic way, which will neither embarrass nor shame him, and gently, patiently, show him how bungee cords are supposed to be used.

Remember, in the words of the master, "If we tell a man that we will put on our shoes and our socks, we must not laugh at him when he does that in exactly such a sequence." Which of course is why one must go barefoot to attain enlightenment.

(If only they had made the movie faithfully from the book. Bungee on, Bungee off. But no, they had to make a car wash joke of it.
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Old 07-07-2014, 13:02   #311
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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Your neighbor quickly procured the bungees and deployed them AND didn't scowl at you at all. And you hold that against him?
.
He did scowl at me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After all I bothered him.

And since the lines didn't slap any less after he deployed the bungees I definitely hold it against him. He sat in the cockpit for the next 3 hours and had to know he hadn't accomplished anything during the 30 seconds of serious effort he put forth. He of course left after a few hours because he never spends the night on the boat.

This is the same boat that was responsible for me starting this thread. Now after years he has been asked a couple of times, I've gone over in the night and fixed the lines (so he knows how to do it), and this year we start all over.

Yet to some here the problem is me
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Old 07-07-2014, 17:28   #312
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Re: Slapping Halyards

You mean, you and tried and failed to enlighten him after years of effort?

The failed student is the sign of the poor teacher. You should probably give away your boat, beg admission to a monastery, and spend a few years meditating on your failure.

Do not be mislead by the attraction of crazy glue. Which will end slapping halyards and many other ills, but leave your teaching methods unimproved.

Curiously enough, a large dose of crazy glue on cotton shoe laces will cause them to burst into combustion. Do not ask me how I came to this knowledge, or whether it can be transferred over to halyards.
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Old 08-07-2014, 00:43   #313
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Re: Slapping Halyards

You guys must understand, Dan is so immensely wealthy that his Island has no noise when he is sleeping, But when he takes his helicopter to town he likes the noise as its a sign of civilization and when has has enough of that he pretends he is poor and has an old boat to do up. Before flying home for the night.
You guys just dont get it Slapping Halyards are a nice noise to his otherwise quit world.
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Old 08-07-2014, 00:50   #314
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Re: Slapping Halyards

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You guys must understand, Dan is so immensely wealthy that his Island has no noise when he is sleeping, But when he takes his helicopter to town he likes the noise as its a sign of civilization and when has has enough of that he pretends he is poor and has an old boat to do up. Before flying home for the night.
You guys just dont get it Slapping Halyards are a nice noise to his otherwise quit world.
Dan is so immensely wealthy after his recent divorce he splurged on all new Ditch Bag ingredients...

This paddle game. That's all I need...
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Old 11-07-2014, 18:33   #315
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Re: Slapping Halyards

I gotta say I'm surprised that a couple of presumably experienced guys on here feel so strongly that slapping halyards are OK, and talking trespass and all that.

I can't think of many things more lubberly than slapping halyards.
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