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Old 26-03-2009, 06:10   #256
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Nick, you forgot one reason in your list...a big one for me: CLIMATE! The older I get, the less I can stand the cold...
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Old 26-03-2009, 08:15   #257
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Great post.
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Old 26-03-2009, 08:16   #258
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All true nick. Yet I guess when I think about the best country to live in and call home, I have to fac tor in things like:
what contributions have we made to the world.
What opportunities are there for me and my kids
how cultural is it? How tolerant is it of other cultures..
Natural resources?
Natural beauty?
Freedom to be yourself, to the limit that protects others,.
Ability to help pick your leaders or change bad ones.
And so on.
I don't know if that is everywhere. I do know that what you say is true that most if not all people would say their country is the best place to be.
I would say that not one country in the world at this time is perfect. All have their down side.
But the thread is about the best destination in the event of global colapse.
And I would have to say that the US is at the top of the list, for many reasons.
But then thats just my opinion. I would say that many in the world would say the same, just because there are more people trying to emigrate to the US then say, China, or Honduras, or France. There are reasons for that. Just stay out of the badlands and its a good place to live.
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Old 26-03-2009, 09:13   #259
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I think it's fair to say that the 'collapse' has already happened. Where is the best place to be, right now?

It's not as if the institutions of civilization would disappear overnight. We still have schools, fire/police departments, manufacturing equipment, educated workforce, etc. Apart from a war or pandemic, losing these things would take time, and likely happen gradually. It's not as if we're going to wake up one day in Mad Max.

Actually, I'm quite a bit more worried about how the global economy is going to deal with a few technology advances that I see today, in my labs. Hopefully, someone is doing some R&D on how to transition to a post-scarcity economy. Interesting times ahead.
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Old 26-03-2009, 09:19   #260
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Originally Posted by bobfnbw View Post
All true nick. Yet I guess when I think about the best country to live in and call home, I have to fac tor in things like:
what contributions have we made to the world.
What opportunities are there for me and my kids
how cultural is it? How tolerant is it of other cultures..
Natural resources?
Natural beauty?
Freedom to be yourself, to the limit that protects others,.
Ability to help pick your leaders or change bad ones.
And so on.
I don't know if that is everywhere. I do know that what you say is true that most if not all people would say their country is the best place to be.
I would say that not one country in the world at this time is perfect. All have their down side.
But the thread is about the best destination in the event of global colapse.
And I would have to say that the US is at the top of the list, for many reasons.
But then thats just my opinion. I would say that many in the world would say the same, just because there are more people trying to emigrate to the US then say, China, or Honduras, or France. There are reasons for that. Just stay out of the badlands and its a good place to live.
You forgot one very important factor: Which country has the most comfortable, best functioning toilets? Clearly, another factor in favor of the U.S.
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Old 26-03-2009, 09:20   #261
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I think it's fair to say that the 'collapse' has already happened. Where is the best place to be, right now?

It's not as if the institutions of civilization would disappear overnight. We still have schools, fire/police departments, manufacturing equipment, educated workforce, etc. Apart from a war or pandemic, losing these things would take time, and likely happen gradually. It's not as if we're going to wake up one day in Mad Max.

Actually, I'm quite a bit more worried about how the global economy is going to deal with a few technology advances that I see today, in my labs. Hopefully, someone is doing some R&D on how to transition to a post-scarcity economy. Interesting times ahead.
What exactly is a "post-scarcity" economy?
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Old 26-03-2009, 09:55   #262
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What exactly is a "post-scarcity" economy?
One where you no longer need people to manufacture things, only energy, which is relatively abundant.

Specifically, a related example would be the "replicator" on Star Trek. The replicator purports to assemble anything you want, at the atomic level. This is unlikely. However, something replicator-like that does assembly at the cellular level, is not only likely, but from what I see in my lab and at our sister CFN lab, all but inevitable.

What would people go and do with themselves? All of a sudden, there would be no market for most of the world's wares.
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Old 26-03-2009, 09:59   #263
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Nick, I think you stole my life

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But the people. Yes, even sweeds come here in the hope of something a lot better. And many, most usualy find it here.
But again, its just my opinion.

Bob
I forgot about this one We have quite a few americans here in Sweden too. They usually come to exploit our natural resources (blondes). If you run into any swedes over there, tell them I said HI

I would like to live anywhere where life is simpler. Food comes from nature, climate is warm and I don't have to spend hours every day stuck in the car trying to go to or from a job that I don't want... And retirement is still 36 years away... A lottery ticket anyone?

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Old 26-03-2009, 11:05   #264
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A few comments and a question.

I turned my back on politics some years ago. There are economic forces, that drive these things, that are far beyond my control or Congress's. Reading this thread was like attending an Economic Collapse Support Group. I've been thought a nut as I've seen the signs, and hoped I was wrong, for years. Even now, people think I'm a nut when I tell them what's coming. It's nice to hear somebody else say that the Emperor is naked.

There's nothing to be gained by pointing fingers of blame at this or that president. Many of those things that created the conditions that resulted in our present economic calamity were put in place before most of the presidents we've seen were born. Once the wing falls off the plane, it doesn't matter who you put in the pilot's seat or what he does. You're going to auger in.

Gold doesn't go up or down in value. The paper play money that the Federal Reserve issues does. Remember, the Fed is NOT part of the United States Government.

I think that the Modern, Industrial World will be a lot harder to tell from the Third World in our lifetime.

That the world economy is going to collapse before it can be fixed, in the way a top has to fall over before being restarted, should be obvious to all, but the most optimistic folks, is a given. The World's economy is primarily composed, at this point, of layer upon layer of Ponzi Schemes. What was never there cannot be fixed. The only questions worth asking now are what is next and what do we have to go through to get there? Perhaps the best thing about having a cruising boat, at this point is history, is that it can serve as a life boat for you and your family. Do you really want to be in NYC when the trucks carrying food stop coming in?

Finally, a last comment and a related question. I don't believe that houses have lost value so much as the winds of change blew away the smoke and mirrors which had people believing they should pay $500k for something that was worth $100k. So my question: What makes people believe that homes should appreciate? When I ask this question they look at me like I've just asked how many days there are in a week, but how many things do you own that are worth more than when you bought them? Your car? No. Your refrigerator? No. Your shoes? No. Your boat? No. Do I have to go on? Yes, there are things that, usually do to scarcity, appreciate in value, but, beach front houses and the like aside, houses don't seem to me to have any reason to be among those things. If you live in an older house, as I do, you know it's not in as good a shape as it was when it was newer. You wouldn't pay more for an older car; why pay more for an older house?
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Old 26-03-2009, 11:27   #265
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A few comments and a question.

I turned my back on politics some years ago. There are economic forces, that drive these things, that are far beyond my control or Congress's. Reading this thread was like attending an Economic Collapse Support Group. I've been thought a nut as I've seen the signs, and hoped I was wrong, for years. Even now, people think I'm a nut when I tell them what's coming. It's nice to hear somebody else say that the Emperor is naked.

There's nothing to be gained by pointing fingers of blame at this or that president. Many of those things that created the conditions that resulted in our present economic calamity were put in place before most of the presidents we've seen were born. Once the wing falls off the plane, it doesn't matter who you put in the pilot's seat or what he does. You're going to auger in.

Gold doesn't go up or down in value. The paper play money that the Federal Reserve issues does. Remember, the Fed is NOT part of the United States Government.

I think that the Modern, Industrial World will be a lot harder to tell from the Third World in our lifetime.

That the world economy is going to collapse before it can be fixed, in the way a top has to fall over before being restarted, should be obvious to all, but the most optimistic folks, is a given. The World's economy is primarily composed, at this point, of layer upon layer of Ponzi Schemes. What was never there cannot be fixed. The only questions worth asking now are what is next and what do we have to go through to get there? Perhaps the best thing about having a cruising boat, at this point is history, is that it can serve as a life boat for you and your family. Do you really want to be in NYC when the trucks carrying food stop coming in?

Finally, a last comment and a related question. I don't believe that houses have lost value so much as the winds of change blew away the smoke and mirrors which had people believing they should pay $500k for something that was worth $100k. So my question: What makes people believe that homes should appreciate? When I ask this question they look at me like I've just asked how many days there are in a week, but how many things do you own that are worth more than when you bought them? Your car? No. Your refrigerator? No. Your shoes? No. Your boat? No. Do I have to go on? Yes, there are things that, usually do to scarcity, appreciate in value, but, beach front houses and the like aside, houses don't seem to me to have any reason to be among those things. If you live in an older house, as I do, you know it's not in as good a shape as it was when it was newer. You wouldn't pay more for an older car; why pay more for an older house?
Simple answer: it's not the house that goes up in value, it's the LAND. You are correct that bricks and mortar depreciate, like other consumables (although one can lessen this factor through proper maintenance, like with your boat). The land value is a function of supply and demand. On a macro basis, the supply of land is fixed, while the population of the world keeps increasing. On a more local level, the supply of land located near the amenities we value is constant, but the number of people wanting to live near those amenities is increasing.

Is/was housing "over valued"? Much of it was, but some wasn't. Will housing increase in value over time? Probably, but some more than others (location, location, location). But perhaps what you were getting at is should people look at their homes as an investment? Probably better to look at as a place to live, and if it happens to increase in value faster than inflation, great.

As to the rest of your doomsday stuff: we'll see. I happen to believe in this country and its people.
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Old 26-03-2009, 13:14   #266
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I learned about supply & demand in Economics 101, but I doubt that there's a proven correlation between the rise & fall of home prices and a corresponding rise & fall in population. I've heard that and, could that be shown, that would be the best answer to my question.

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I happen to believe in this country and its people.
I, also, believe in the spirit of the American people, though I'm not at all sure it's what it used to be. I hope it is, because rebuilding after the collapse will call on all the spirit we can muster.

The American People, for the most part, didn't put us in the position we're in, but they're going to suffer thru it.

I hope your optimism is better founded than my pessimism as I have children & grandchildren who will have to suffer if I'm right.
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Old 26-03-2009, 15:11   #267
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Unless you bring a bag of cash;
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... I would like to live anywhere where life is simpler. Food comes from nature, climate is warm and I don't have to spend hours every day stuck in the car trying to go to or from a job that I don't want...
Unless you bring a bag of cash to paradise, your described lifestyle is call “subsistence” (gathering, farming, hunting/fishing), and requires that you spend most of all day acquiring the bare means by which one merely maintains life.
This economy doesn’t come with fries, and cannot be up-sized (super-sized).
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Old 26-03-2009, 15:24   #268
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Not quite so...

There actually are rather a few subsistence 'stone-age' societies which live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Some of the studies suggest they spend an average of 4-6 hours working to survive, and the rest of the time on social endeavours. (Their rarity is a combination of few places with good enough resources to be successful being left unexploited, and vulnerability to disease.)

At the same time, who would want to live a subsistence lifestyle without books/entertainment?
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Old 26-03-2009, 15:44   #269
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At the same time, who would want to live a subsistence lifestyle without books/entertainment?
Exactly.

Complete self sufficiency with some level of modern comfort and leisure on a boat is either a myth or a full time job. In tropical regions your boat provides shelter by definition, and clothing requires little more that T shirts, bathing suits, a hat and simple foot gear. But even those cruisers who are proficient and lucky at fishing rarely do more than supplement their diet. Storing and preserving an excess catch on a cruising boat is not a trivial task. And, if you are going to live on fish, plantains and coconuts, you will be a full time hunter-gatherer or need to start a tribe. You can make water and more or less achieve electrical self sufficiency, but you will still want fuel now and then. If you want to be truly self sufficient, forget the boat and buy a farm.
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Old 26-03-2009, 15:54   #270
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Unless you bring a bag of cash;

Unless you bring a bag of cash to paradise, your described lifestyle is call “subsistence” (gathering, farming, hunting/fishing), and requires that you spend most of all day acquiring the bare means by which one merely maintains life.
This economy doesn’t come with fries, and cannot be up-sized (super-sized).
I didn't say it was doable. I'll be more than happy to settle for something in between

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