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Old 27-02-2010, 10:43   #106
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the tapes showed the trainer--female--smooching with the whale--a male---looked like the whale was trying to mate with her---is a problem when men are teased---whales are mammals, after all and very intelligent--if one keeps a male animal away from its kind for looong time, should it not believe it is as you are?? she was wearing orca coloring with here wetsuit---i think the male was trying to mate----mebbe we should try to keep the cultures separated so the critter population is not confused by our arrogant actions.....,
I recall a few incidents in Thailand over the years with Elephants (Males) killing / injuring Tourists (females)..........whether true or not, the explanation I heard was something to do with the female Bicycle. or summit Weren't neccesarily trying to mate, just scrambled their responses and made them unpredictable.

I get a feeling that Orcas are kinda like Tigers - you & me might forget what they are and what they do, but they don't.
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Old 27-02-2010, 11:03   #107
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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
the tapes showed the trainer--female--smooching with the whale--a male---looked like the whale was trying to mate with her---is a problem when men are teased---whales are mammals, after all and very intelligent--if one keeps a male animal away from its kind for looong time, should it not believe it is as you are?? she was wearing orca coloring with here wetsuit---i think the male was trying to mate----mebbe we should try to keep the cultures separated so the critter population is not confused by our arrogant actions.....,
Lots of wisdom here!

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Imprinting is well known in many other species. When animals become confused about their identity they can begin to show their normal behavior amongst themselves to humans. It often ends up being dangerous. Even the cute little bottlefed lamb can grow up to be a powerful ram and because he is confused about his role may want to have a little game of head butting....
It's rather well documented in many domestic animals. Perhaps that is a meaningful contribution to understanding orcas that seaworld can take credit for...But is it really all that surprising? Is it something we need to know? I would much rather they be studied in their habitat to see what they can teach us about trying to fit into the big picture.
Good observation Zeehag
I once watched a team of Divers photograph some sort of whale in courtship rituals.. anyway this one gal was stroking and playing with this one male and it got excited and grabbed her flipper..The whale just started sinking into the depths tail first dragging the Diver down, down, down.. She eventually freed herself but it was pretty freaky to watch not knowing the final outcome...I thought she was a goner.

Yes they may be smart but I have been known to loose clarity of thinking when excited as well...
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Old 27-02-2010, 11:10   #108
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Yes they may be smart but I have been known to loose clarity of thinking when excited as well...
They're not the only ones...
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Old 27-02-2010, 11:18   #109
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Another reason not to play with killer whales

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Old 27-02-2010, 11:32   #110
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Your not the only one...

There I fixed it for you...


I dont know how to do that crossing out trick.
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Old 27-02-2010, 18:47   #111
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There I fixed it for you...


I dont know how to do that
HTML Code:
<s>crossing out</s>
trick.
You use wrap the section with an html tag and then apply <s>around the section</s> I think. If it worked in the quote then that's how.
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Old 27-02-2010, 18:48   #112
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Guess not!
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Old 27-02-2010, 18:51   #113
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Guess not!
It's the button on the right looks like ABC
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Old 27-02-2010, 19:14   #114
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There I fixed it for you...
Thank you!
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Old 27-02-2010, 19:22   #115
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It's the button on the right looks likeABC

COOL!....I feel so powerfull now!
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Old 27-02-2010, 23:19   #116
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More Spouting Here Than at SeaWorld

A lot of assumptions and a lot of moral posturing here which rests on very weak foundations.
  1. We don't know what animals think, or if they are self-aware, or if they reflect on their actions like human beings do. We don't even understand the nature of our own consciousness, let alone that of other orders of life. Lots of anthropomorphizing here. Intentional Drifter has been the most honest agnostic about this, as he has about the idea of intelligence and what it might be in cetacea. I don't believe attributing dark motives like revenge to them can be substantiated by any empirical observation. The idea of "suffering" is inherently subjective, as it seems to me that suffering requires self-awareness and is modified by psychological factors, while pain is a purely physical phenomenon.
  2. Animals are not persons in any legal, or any philosophical senses that I am aware of. Talk of "murder" is way over the top because of this category error. Slaughter, as distasteful as it is to most, is a more accurate term. The outrage knob must be turned down a couple of notches, then.
  3. If you're a Darwinist, concepts of "good" and "should," which have been used innumerable times here, become disallowed terms. If we're the products of blind forces, and the principle of survival of the fittest applies all the way up the chain to were we live, it's not good or evil to treat anything in any particular way, at least not in an absolute sense. We have to get our "good" and "should" from somewhere outside a purely naturalistic view.
  4. If the orca had killed two people already, why was anyone allowed to get in the tank with it? I see a shared responsibility between SeaWorld and the dead woman, who surely knew of the beast's past.
  5. It does seem clear that small enclosures can cause captive animals stress, and that this practice constitutes less than humane treatment.
  6. Judging the training of animals to perform as "dehumanizing" is comparing apples to bricks. Who knows what the animals think about it? They might very well enjoy it, for all I know. Those bottle nosed dolphins looks as if they're always smiling to me, but I know I can't take that to mean they're happy. Follow that reasoning (we shouldn't train animals to behave in ways not observed in the wild) just a bit farther, and we'll have to abolish sheep dogs on the same grounds. Get ready to tear the "Obedience Schools" pages out of your telephone directory, open up all those parrot cages, and shame on you all.
  7. These aquaria, while needing to make a profit, have undoubtedly also allowed scientific understanding of cetacea to a degree not possible by any other means. The profit aquaria make has paid for a lot of research, along with making shareholders happy. The orcas may be black and white, but this issue isn't. Categorical denunciations throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Seems to me that harnessing the engine of capitalism in this manner can move a lot of scientific and philanthropic freight.


Jeff
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Old 27-02-2010, 23:30   #117
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A lot of assumptions and a lot of moral posturing here which rests on very weak foundations.
  1. If the orca had killed two people already, why was anyone allowed to get in the tank with it? I see a shared responsibility between SeaWorld and the dead woman, who surely knew of the beast's past.
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Old 28-02-2010, 08:20   #118
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Couple of points Jeff. As a Darwinist, I agree with your assessment on the anthropomorphizing going on here, but you must be willing to also agree that it's entirely possible that the whale can suffer, can anger by captivity, can be frustrated, and can know the gist of it's situation. Similar behaviors are well documented in Elephants and Apes.

As for the trainer, it is my understanding that she fell into the tank...is this incorrect? I'm with you...that tank should have been treated the same as if it were filled with ten thousand pirannas.

Lastly, as a Darwinist, you must know that any comparison of wild animals to domesticated sheepdogs is useless, just as you understand the mechanism used to separate them from the wolf...and for the Parrots, I know you were joking, but I cant stand to see them in cages. They are wonderful to see in the jungles though...

Now I will use a quote that appears quite often in this forum: There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we do not know we don’t know.



And, as a parting gift, I will start this list...

Things Humans should not pet:
Orcas
Great White sharks
Porcupines
Grizzly bears
Portuguese Man-o-Wars...
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Old 28-02-2010, 09:48   #119
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Couple of points Jeff. As a Darwinist, I agree with your assessment on the anthropomorphizing going on here, but you must be willing to also agree that it's entirely possible that the whale can suffer, can anger by captivity, can be frustrated, and can know the gist of it's situation. Similar behaviors are well documented in Elephants and Apes.

As for the trainer, it is my understanding that she fell into the tank...is this incorrect? I'm with you...that tank should have been treated the same as if it were filled with ten thousand pirannas.

Lastly, as a Darwinist, you must know that any comparison of wild animals to domesticated sheepdogs is useless, just as you understand the mechanism used to separate them from the wolf...and for the Parrots, I know you were joking, but I cant stand to see them in cages. They are wonderful to see in the jungles though...

Now I will use a quote that appears quite often in this forum: There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we donít know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we do not know we donít know.



And, as a parting gift, I will start this list...

Things Humans should not pet:
Orcas
Great White sharks
Porcupines
Grizzly bears
Portuguese Man-o-Wars...
One of my favorite storys CVH. I always told it as a scorpion and a turtle to my daughter, but the story and moral is the same.
The question is between the Orca and the Sea Worlds and those who patronize them. Who is the scorpion and who is the frog.
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Old 28-02-2010, 13:46   #120
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"Things Humans should not pet:
Orcas
Great White sharks
Porcupines
Grizzly bears
Portuguese Man-o-Wars... "



Plus:
Snakes
Spiders
Tigers
Blue Ringed Octapus
Stone Fish
Stingrays
A list of the things you can/should pet might be shorter.
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