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Old 25-02-2010, 13:22   #61
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Cheers!
I guess I have yet to hear of an orca being responsibly kept in captivity and can't imagine a situation that one could be.
Sea World is a zoo. This is the issue. It is for profit at the animals expense.
Awareness? The photos above create more awareness than any captive wild animal on exhibit can ever create. In these photos they are the way they should be and portray more of what people should be aware of!
I disagree. Seaworld is not a zoo. It is a cicrus.
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:28   #62
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Excellent thread. Thought provoking. Thanks to all.
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:43   #63
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Does that sound that different from our lives as humans? Go to the office to work so that we can put money in the bank so we can pay our bills. cant even not pay taxes b/c the government takes them right out of our paycheck before we see them. I guess the main difference is that we have the illusion of free choice. The world is a harsh place. Animals in captivity live much longer than those in the wild. Is it right? Don't know. Is it anymore wrong than genocide, slavery, child abuse, etc?
Hi Charlie..how are things?

The difference is we humans choose to subject ourselves to our own torment, pretty much.

The other factor is the degree of intelligence of the animal being held captive and the size of its environment compared to what it has adapted to over millions of years in the wild. Its just is not right to keep a highly intelligent animal in such small quarters. Doing something like this in my opinion is clearly animal cruelty.

I have never been an animal rights type of personality but I know cruelty to animals when I see it. I think most of us do.

I think the argument about animals kept in captivity living longer boils down to this... Would you rather live in prison for 100 years or die having lived a free life at the age of 60?
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:51   #64
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Hi Charlie..how are things?

The difference is we humans choose to subject ourselves to our own torment...pretty much..
Or some of us decide the best way to stop playing the game, supporting the problem, the only way to make the choice not to subject ourselves to such....is to get on a boat!
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Old 25-02-2010, 14:41   #65
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Whilst diving for herring roe in Prince William Sound, a pod of Orcas came through feeding on the spawning herring. Understanding the immense power and threat that they could have posed, I chose to remove myself from their path.
Having lost loved ones, my sympathy goes out to the family of the deceased. However, she chose to put herself in the path of a potential and inevitable threat. She must shoulder the majority of the burden for her death.
That said, wild animals in captivity is, and should be, a crime against nature. There are exceptions, but they are few.
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Old 25-02-2010, 14:41   #66
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felt a bit sad after leaving sea world park because of the quality of life of the animals, I have only been there once and decided at the time to never to go back again. I think all orcas should be rehabed and released. Though, I'd hate to meet them in the wild after their release, I have a feeling they'd have a score to settle with us humans.
I think the days of "orca shows" being useful in educating the public is over. We can google, you tube, and can easily read up on wildlife. We can catch a boat and see them in the wild. Heck, we can go to imax and have a much closer look into the lives of these creatures, definitely more then watching them do circus tricks in a tiny tank. Also, I think the rehab centers could act as educators for the public (and do BTW).
I grew up in Hawaii, some of my fondest memories were at Sea Life park, but I also saw the same sea life swimming at the beach in front of my home. I think there is a place for these aquariums in our world but not for the higher intelligence species and certainly not for an animal of the orcas size. I am certain that Sea World is all about making money, they prove this by hanging on to an orca that has killed 2-3 times, and they will beat the "we do it to educate the ignorant public" drum all the while. Why don't they let tilikum go? I think it is because he has fathered a couple baby orcas (that IS big money).
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Old 25-02-2010, 15:37   #67
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I think all orcas should be rehabed and released. Though, I'd hate to meet them in the wild after their release, I have a feeling they'd have a score to settle with us humans...
Why don't they let tilikum go? I think it is because he has fathered a couple baby orcas (that IS big money).
I agree that, provided they can survive in the wild, the animals should be released- except that I'm not comfortable releasing an animal that already seems to have a penchant for killing people. He may have acted in revenge after being mistreated- or maybe he's just a psycho.

(FWIW, I don't like human killers being free either. or alive, for that matter.)
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Old 25-02-2010, 15:38   #68
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I think your right Ocean Girl. If they are educating the public they have a strange way of doing it. Putting the animals in an environment completely unlike their own and having people ride them like a circus animal certain isn't teaching anything about Orcas in the wild.
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Old 25-02-2010, 15:40   #69
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Zednotzee, these animals aren't nicknamed killers because of their relationship with humans. I don't think we need to worry about them being released unless someone wants to try riding one out there but then you'd need a pretty good lasso to get on one I think ...
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Old 25-02-2010, 15:45   #70
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She must shoulder the majority of the burden for her death.
That statement has my head spinning, wondering how she could do that.

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Old 25-02-2010, 15:52   #71
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I'm afraid Zednotzee's concern will be the outcome of this event. I don't know if there is or isn't justification for it, if a grudge against humans would be a potential threat or not. Most animals shake things off and choose the better side of life when not threatened. However, man ussually wants to be in control (or try to be) and my fear is that Tilly won't live long.
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Old 25-02-2010, 15:57   #72
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They don't eat people. With animals we have labled "man eaters" they are amongst species that do. It's just an opinion of course but as far as we know it's never happened. Here's an interesting new story:
Local News | Boy's orca encounter short, scary | Seattle Times Newspaper
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Old 25-02-2010, 16:00   #73
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Form the point of view of the chief trainer at Sea World:
SeaWorld killer whale trainer: 'We treated Tilikum differently' | World news | guardian.co.uk
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Old 25-02-2010, 16:13   #74
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I am quite skeptical of our ability to "understand" cetacean intelligence. While I have no doubt that their intelligence is great and highly complex (see Cetaceans Have Complex Brains for Complex Cognition for an excellent and recent review), it has evolved in a very different environment with very different demands. Indeed, they may be an analog to an "alien" intelligence, perhaps equivalent to or exceeding our own. However, the symbolic processing substrates would have been built in ways very, very different from our own. Any extrapolations we make run a great risk of being anthropomorphic projections -- in other words, when we look at them we're seeing more of ourselves reflected than we are seeing them.

Just for giggles, though, and indulging in a bit of that anthropomorphic projection, I do find the following little bit quite ironically funny.



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Old 25-02-2010, 16:19   #75
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I think the movie "Orca" comes to mind when I think of tilly or any abused orca being released..I say that tongue in cheek.... but I wont be swimmin with em in the water either. Tilikum's behavior is strangely similar to the wild killer whales that play with the seals, penguins, and even great white sharks, before they eat them. They toss and thrash their prey about, I don't think this is a bad whale..its just a whale doing what whales do.
I think it is a good point that some orcas cannot be released and those could be housed (without the circus routine though) at parks for people to see.
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