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Old 25-02-2010, 11:12   #46
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Oh, I see. So if there was an institution that had slaves for all to see and learn about it would somehow be good?
Hmmm...Think of all the money that could be raised for the cause. Wow.
You write that as if slavery was a thing of the past.
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Old 25-02-2010, 11:14   #47
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In this case I believe abuse is subjective. I'm not sure where the misinformation comes from but I don't believe these parks are disseminating it. For example, I grew up in Miami and we have had the Miami Seaquarium since the mid fifties. Since then millions of people have passed through it's gates and millions of school children have spent many field trips going there learning about the oceans around them. The impact of the "Flipper" TV series filmed there had on many and still does to this day. Children who have grown up to donate millions and now vote to protect the oceans because of such field trips. I don't know of anywhere else that so many people could have gone to be educated and influenced for the rest of their lives about our oceans and the life in it. I'd hardly compare that to human slavery.
The Miami Sequarium is a perfect example of shame and disgrace toward killer whales. After Lolita was captured in Puget Sound and brought to Miami the famous trainer of Flipper, Richard O'Berry, left their employ to become one of the leading dolphin advocates (movie The Cove). The male whale at the Seaquarium was so distressed from the small swimming pool he was in that he eventually died from ramming his head against the pool wall. Lolita still remains, and is still the subject of a long difficult campaign to win her release for freedom. The story is as shameful as human slavery.

She has been held captive in her little pool for 39 years.
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Old 25-02-2010, 11:19   #48
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Stillraining, thank you. Certainly not FloridaWriter. I was responding to the "red herring" accusation of jacob30.
Tillie, in regards to Flipper, have you seen the movie "The Cove"?
I'll figure these newfangled things out yet...perhaps even the quote feature...
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Old 25-02-2010, 11:31   #49
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David, I only wish to impress that supporting those that support wrongdoing is supporting wrongdoing. I understand that there are varying degrees to which we all must make our own decissions. However, I believe we all need to look carefully at the decissions we make. Real change can only come about from awareness and the actions we take.
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Old 25-02-2010, 11:55   #50
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Hey David...I thought I told you to quit using my picture for your avatar...
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Old 25-02-2010, 12:27   #51
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So Conrad do you have "captive" animals at your home? Just making sure we know where you stand. Do you eat animals? Are they wild caught or "captive?"

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Many here have debated the pros of keeping orcas and other wild intellegent animals captive. Some even support the facilities that do.
The only red herring argument is the one that somehow justifies the wrongdoing.
To support such institutions is to support their practices.
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Old 25-02-2010, 12:29   #52
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They scared me big time!!!!

Whilst on my Yachtmaster course in Gibraltar we saw a large pod. The Gibraltar Straits????

The photo below has Morocco in it.

We were on a Bavaria 44 and the size of them made me shiver with respect.

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Old 25-02-2010, 12:36   #53
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A red herring argument is when you present something false to move the debate away from the issue like saying that people here have advocated "abuse" to make people "aware." No one here has done this therefore "Red Herring" accusation applies.

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Stillraining, thank you. Certainly not FloridaWriter. I was responding to the "red herring" accusation of jacob30.
Tillie, in regards to Flipper, have you seen the movie "The Cove"?
I'll figure these newfangled things out yet...perhaps even the quote feature...
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Old 25-02-2010, 12:46   #54
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Jacob30, talk about "red herring"????
I said "wild intellegent animals". If you would like to get into a discussion about domestic animals and animal husbandry I would be happy to. I even think we would agree on the topic. How about hunting? But this thread is about an inceodent with a captive wild animal that is tradgic yet telling.
If you feel that it is good to keep wild animals such as orcas in captivity it is your privelage. I don't.
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Old 25-02-2010, 12:48   #55
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A red herring argument is when you present something false to move the debate away from the issue like saying that people here have advocated "abuse" to make people "aware." No one here has done this therefore "Red Herring" accusation applies.
I guess it depends on what you call abuse. I believe keeping wild animals captive is abuse.
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Old 25-02-2010, 12:49   #56
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Orcas in Haro Strait

This was shot in Haro Strait, off San Juan Island, members of J pod most likely: 6 killer whales swimming in formation, dived under our boat, surfaced on the other side and begain to dive again as I snapped.

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Old 25-02-2010, 12:52   #57
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I guess it depends on what you call abuse. I believe keeping wild animals captive is abuse.
Ok now we are getting somewhere. That is where the debate rests. I believe in the responsible captivity of wild animals for the greater good of their wild relatives only. NOT for our entertainment or pleasure.
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:02   #58
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Cheers!
I guess I have yet to hear of an orca being responsibly kept in captivity and can't imagine a situation that one could be.
Sea World is a zoo. This is the issue. It is for profit at the animals expense.
Awareness? The photos above create more awareness than any captive wild animal on exhibit can ever create. In these photos they are the way they should be and portray more of what people should be aware of!
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:10   #59
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I have sailed in company with these beautiful animals in Puget Sound and off the California coast. As far as I know, the only place Orcas have ever harmed humans is in captive situations. How clear a message does anybody need? But to think that Sea World and other places would change their money making policy because of one trainer death is to assume that the World Hockey association will stop games because one player was injured. THAT is what people pay, hoping to see. It is not just the sports moguls or the ocean zoo moguls who are to blame. It is every singe human who has ever paid bucks to see an orca in a cage. Any sea world, any zoo. We are all complicit here, some more than others. Those of us who frequent this and other such websites are among the most priveledged humans the world has ever known, for we get to sail on the oceans, seeing these creatures, armed with current knowlege about them. But is there any of us who has not paid to see violence or the possibility of violence? Sports, movies, etc. The attraction of the profession of large animal 'trainer' includes the danger. She knew the possibility was there. Sea World will make a big stink saying how sorry they are, but their income from fees will go up, as people flock to see the 'killer'.
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Old 25-02-2010, 13:21   #60
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My apologies for the graphic language below. Reader discretion recommended.

When I was very young and the circus came to town my parents took me to see it. I remember to this day the horribly malformed human fetuses that were displayed in glass jars. And I remember the malnourished dancing bear with a ring through its bleeding nose. At the time it was believed that this display of little dead people and dancing wild beasts was educational.

Supposedly, we evolved as humans since those days.

There are children nowadays that haven't seen a real cow. So what?

An orca trainer died on the job. Why is that news? Soldiers, policemen, firemen die on the job every day. It's sad, but that is the way it is.

Wild animals belong in the wild. Period. Free Tilikum!
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