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Old 29-03-2008, 00:32   #1
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Scotts Ketch

to save thread drift - copied from another thread to keep the sequence going.

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Originally Posted by Steve Pope View Post
Good to see you on line Max, hows the sounds project going??
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Was approached when I rowed ashore one day, told I would get in trouble if I didn't remove photo, replied I would gladly remove photo if he could show me a 26 foot displacement keeler motoring at 22 knots.
Some support but mainly stunned apathetic look the other way.
Solo yachties nightmare = trialbytrickery.com
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Max, you were approached by who?? and where is the photo??
Interesting story that Scott Watson one. Maybe we could discuss this subject as a new topic.
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Yes, the Scott thing. I just had a cruise of your site, nice work. I'm also one who thought things never stacked up quite right with all of that.
carry on
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Old 29-03-2008, 00:34   #2
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So where's the mystery ketch gone? I heard something about someone thinking it had been sunk by Gisborne. Any thoughts?
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Old 29-03-2008, 01:26   #3
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As an aside there has been a query in the Herald re an apparently sworn affidavit by now police commissioner Rob Pope to do with the sounds murder case that has been under police investigation for 4 years and has still to see the light of day, methinks the wheels of "justice" grind exceedingly slow.
For those who don't know the story, this about a fellow yachty that was tried for a double murder on entirely circumstantial evidence and found guilty, there has been considerable post trial investigations by interested individuals that alledge a fit up by the police of the day. A documentry has been made and a book written that make damning alegations against the police that one would have expected either slander or libel cases to be brought by the police officers named, so far 2 + years down the track not a whisper, can it be that they can't refute the allegations??
Read about it on the trial by trickery site on max's post.
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Old 29-03-2008, 04:12   #4
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Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
Max, you were approached by who?? and where is the photo??

Don't know who he is, while I was locking dinghy to a tree a car pulls up, bloke asks alot of questions, even offers me a lift, maybe wanted to know where I was going. As I grabbed my oars and started walking away, said to him, "fancy the cops purchasing 2 prisoner witnesses and coaching them what to say in court, really dodgy don't you think"

photo is on side of my yacht, picture at trialbytrickery.com "latest news"
click on pic for larger view

info on mystery ketch that the missing pair were last seen boarding here
mysteryketch2
a sub page from this site set up by the real victims brother
homepage

this occured 10yrs ago so may be very hard to track down, it's not in NZ
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Old 29-03-2008, 14:20   #5
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10yrs now? Wow hasn't time flown.
This is what I know of the case from personal experiance. I have yet to read the book or what is on the website. I am purposly doing this so as I (just myself) can see how similar my personal knowledge is to the published knowledge
OK being my home area and being a small community, I know many of those involved. I have meet Scott Watson, but don't know him well at all. The entire Family tend to be qiet and reserved. I know his Father well enough to say high to in the street and have a brief Talk. Very nice guy, but once again shy, quiet and reserved. He carried out the Pre-purchase Survey on my boat. I know Guy Wallace. This was the Water Taxi driver on the fateful night. Guy is a close friend of another friend of mine, so I have metet him on odd occasions. (we are talking 10yrs ago and back to nearly 20yrs ago) Guy Wallace is a smart guy. Very experianced around boats. If he said he dropped the couple of at a Ketch, I can assure you that he dropped them off at what he believed was a Ketch. He describes the boat he dropped the couple of at in great detail. I really don't think he made this up. Yes it may have been dark, but there is always enough light to see a boat you are holding onto to steady your small runabout to allow your passengers to disenbark.
The following few days after the event, many independant witnesses came forth saying they had seen a "distinctive Ketch". All these witnesses gave a strikingly similar discription of it. Yet no Ketch was ever followed up on by the Police. Funnily, we have a blue (was, now white and only purchased it in the recent five years) ketch and we always get koked about owning a blue Ketch.
Another point I found strange was the survey of the Tory Channel entrance the Polic carried out. A survey vessel was brought in and used to sound the bottom in great detail. The Police said they found many significant things on the bottom. They never retrieved any of those things. Probably next to impossible to do so due to the depth and the often upto 7knots of current. But why go to the expense of sounding the bottom and not retrieving anything that looked suspicous. Or was there nothing at all???
Guy Wallace and my mutual friend do not have a lot of good things to say about Scott Watson. He certainly has a seedy past and niether of these two would go out of their way to protect the guy. Yet Guy, being the sort of stand up person he is, still believes the Police have it wrong.
One person in the Watson Family that is actually very nice, is the Sister. She has a Family of two girls. Grown up now, but only little girls back then. They used to play in their uncle Scotts boat and they used to get told off often by Scott, for picking away at the closed cell foam insulation he had glued to the underneath of the forward hatch. The Mother came forth to the Police with the two girls and could prove it was the two wee girls fingernails that made the scratches.
Many years on now from that time, I quite by chance meet Scotts wife. Now ex wife. It was by way of one of my students. I new her name as Coral Watson and that her Husband was behind bars, but made no connection at the time. She met and married Scott while he was still in Prison. Not sure how that all works, but OK, whatever floats your boat I suppose. Anyway's, the marriage broke up eventually when she found out Scott was having an affair with another woman...(yep while he was still in Prison. I don't know either) Coral was looking after one of my ex students. Someone I have worked very hard at getting on track with his life. He came from a real crap background. He and his younger sister had shifted to another part of the country to make a new start. Coral had an old shed converted into a sleepout. She had several Kids sleeping in the shed. Sadly it burn't down and my Student was killed in the fire. It was then during all the cuffufle going on that I learn't that Coral was Scotts wife. Small world.
Also sadly that day, an Mechanical firm phoned for my student. They did not know he had died the night before. They had decided to take him on as an apprentice and were phoning to say they had accepted him. Very Sad.
Is Scott innocent or Guilty, I really don't know. I do have some doubts to his Guilt. But one thing I do know, we are supposed to have a rule of Justice in NZ that says "beyound any reasonable doubt" (or words to that affect) I just don't see how a jury convicted him when there is so much doubt in the case. Unless they as the Jury were not given all evidence. Interestingly many of the Jury have over the years scince, changed their minds to the vedict.
The story is still talked about here. It simply doesn't seem like 10yrs ago. I still meet people that have some connection to the case and there are many theories. Some a little way out there.
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Old 30-03-2008, 22:22   #6
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Most of the crowns case was to paint Scott as a "nasty piece of work"
and because he "is a nasty piece of work" he must have done it.
Did the pre arrest defamation of Scott in the media alter you opinion of him Alan?
It certainly altered my opinion until I read up on it, and now regard the Police & Judicary as a "nasty piece of work".
Sure he was trouble when a teen, (so was I), but he had changed his ways it seems, (and I grew out of it also).
It is partly covered here Hunter Productions - Trial by Trickery; Scott Watson, New Zealand's most blatantly dishonest prosecution.
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Old 31-03-2008, 00:45   #7
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I have an issue with this sort of thing all the time. I am working with many Kids that are just inches away from going behind bars or going to Juvinile. What seems to happen is the Police keep a tab of all the things the Kids do and they just wait for the right time so as they can hit them as hard as they can. Now on one hand, you kinda say, well the little punk deserved it. But on the other hand I also think that a person should be tried, snetanced and punished for the crimes he did and not the crime he didn't do. I have a young lad going up for sentancing tomorrow and the cops have a list of previous offenses that they are going to hand to the judge. The actual crime they have him on is Trespass. But they haven't actually got solid evidence that he commited the crime. He just happend to be there. Pretty obvious, but!
I wouldn't mind betting the Police just had a lot of small previous stuff on Scott and have waited till the right moment. This moment actually ended up being something they could really put him away for.
Could Scott have done it?? Even though I knew he was a strange'ish fellow, I really didn't think him capable of that. And to be honest, I have always found it easy to see what people are capable of in their face and manorisms. The face always tells a story. Hehe, the Kids I work with can never work out how I know things they have done. I know the ones that just do stuff because they are imature teenagers and I know th ones that are dead certs for criminal life and I know the ones you never turn your back on. But when it comes to dark seedy stuff like Murder, you can never really be sure eh.
I think the point for me I found the hardest to understand was how he could have overpowered the two. Ben was a "strapping young lad" and Olivia new how to look after herself. Scott was a wee weed of a guy back then.
Dawn had Scotts boat in her Airforce Hanger and although she wasn't allowed inside it or on it, she certainly could look around it. She was surprised at how small it was and thought how on earth could you do something with two people inside that.
Max, so tell me, what is the story behind the boat and the speed test etc. I remember issues with the boat not being able to get to certain points in the time the Police suggested it had to have.
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Old 31-03-2008, 00:54   #8
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Yes it all seemed to swing from 'we are looking for XX and YY' to 'This Scott, a suspect, is a nasty person' rather to quickly for my liking. It seemed to me, a general punter, that 'someone' suddenly became very convinced they had a person they 'wanted' quickly but never really backed it up with anything of substance. The way alternatives were quickly rubbish gave me an uncomfortable feeling as well.

I've thought for a very long while that while Scott did have some very dodgy dealings in his past and quite possible could be called a bad bastard, he has been screwed big time on this one in the interests of 'a result'. As time goes on I'm seeing and hearing things that only reinforce this view.

Did I hear something recently saying Scott has only one avenue of appeal left i.e. running out of options?
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Old 31-03-2008, 02:09   #9
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The crown case was that Blade was witnessed by a father & son on the Cook Straight ferry bobbing around at 4.30pm, according to the ferry captain, 5nm out into Cook Straight from Tory entrance.
Then seen at Erie Bay at 5pm. Thats 11nm in 30 minutes. Scotts defence lawyers did tell the jury that the trip was not possible but they went along with the prosecution scenario anyway.
Scott actually arived at Erie Bay approx lunchtime but Erie Bay friend of Scotts was pressured by Police to alter arrival time to 5pm, they found 200 cannabis plants at Erie Bay, threatend to have his children taken off him etc.
In fact there was only one yacht that crossed Cook Straight on this day, a yacht named Dau Soko, it arrived at Tory entrance approx 5pm but Police changed this to 2pm. There was other evidence that would have cleared Scott but Police conveniently shelved it. Trial Judge was biased, he told the jury the tide was coming in when it was actually going out. Trial Judge was also the one that Pope was telling porkies to (including Scott bonking his sister) for the warrants for bugging devices, this is in the process of hitting Popes fan any day now.

Charter operator Ted Walsh and his wife and crew saw the ketch on the morning of Jan 2nd, described a blond girl sitting in the cockpit, this girl has not been identified, "beyond reasonable doubt?" Ted Walsh reckons it was Oliva but as we were told the ketch doesn't exist, and what the hell do experienced boaties know about boats anyway.

This case was referred to the Privy Council but sadly the chose not to look into and returned it. There is no doubt of Scotts innocence now that the truth has come out under the Official Information Act but it is too embarrasing for them to deal with and one innocent person locked
up is prefferable to them.
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Old 31-03-2008, 12:11   #10
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The other interesting point is the description by witnesses of the "suspicous character" at the bar that night. The description did not fit Scott's description at all. This character was supposed to have wirey curly hair and they even produced a police identicate picture that didn't resemble Scott in any way. That person was never identified and was evetually considered by Police to be Scott, so no other person was looked for.

You know, it's a pity Google earth didn't have an archive of pictures by dates. Wouldn't it be neat to pull up a picture of the bay that day and see just what really was anchored and moored in the bay.
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Old 31-03-2008, 22:07   #11
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The other interesting point is the description by witnesses of the "suspicous character" at the bar that night. The description did not fit Scott's description at all.
This is partly why Keith Hunters book is called "Trial By Trickery"
Guy Wallace would not identify Scott as he didn't match the man he dropped off at the ketch. Police used another photo, still Guy would not identify. Then bingo, they found one with Scott half way through a blink.
Guy picked out the eyes only, not the man as such. He was never asked in court to identify Scott because he would have said no.

Detective Tom Fitzgerald hassled the buggery out of Guy for 5 hours, told him repeatedly "no one else has seen this ketch" had him in tears, he was not a suspect but the key eye witness. Police regarded him as a difficult witness because he didn't sucumb to the polices "fix it man". But he had identified the eyes and that was near enough.

In Mike Kalaugher's book The Marlborough Mystery, chapter 5 covers this and it is very disturbing and totally dishonest. Part of it is in "Murder on the Blade" documentary acted out word for word. Very very disturbing for a public servant that we are supposed to look up to and trust.

Basically the mystery man and Scott were merged into one man, Scott.
Eveyone that saw the mystery man, or the ketch were wrong according to Greg O'Connors fine upstanding well rounded troops.

The complaint made by Chris Watson 4 years ago was that Rob Pope said to the Judge (for the warrants) Scott was unshaven withe longer scruffy hair but the picture taken at 930pm shows Scott clean shaven with short hair.

The Policeman that planted the cartridge case in Thomas case was not charged for perverting the course of Justice, so Pope will probably just get slapped with a wet bus ticket.
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Old 31-03-2008, 22:23   #12
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Scott was unshaven withe longer scruffy hair but the picture taken at 930pm shows Scott clean shaven with short hair.
Now that has always been a point I was suspicous about. Because when ever I did seen Scott, he always had short hair and was clean shaven. He was just that kind of person. I have never remembered him as a scruffy kind of individual.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:27   #13
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There's not the slightest doubt in my mind that Scott Watson is innocent...he may have been a scumbag but that is no reason to hang a guy.
I first found out about this case (from sittin in Atlanta, GA) by a small article in the NZ Hearld about a year ago where they had interviewed an older couple in Brookhaven who categorically stated thet had SEEN THE KETCH!!!!!...had been moored right next to it in fact and had made a comment to the owner and the reply was YES the ketch had been in Nelson at the time!!!!

The other thing that mightily disturbs me is that this case went all the way to the High Court and not a damn thing was done!!!...these Judges cannot (or WOULD not) see what you and I and any reasonable person would think was glaringly obvious...that Scott Watson is innocent...that the cops screwed their investigation from the start......to me that is scary beyond belief...it has killed any sense at all of any expection of reasonableness or justice....you go down because some copper wants to advance his carreer and the judicial system will bury you along with it....completely unacceptable in my opinion....I cannot understand why the people of NZ are not all sorts of up in arms about this...putting HUGE pressure on the politicians to open an inquiry or something....

Meanwhile....Scott Watson has had 10yrs to contemplate all these things....how his whole life is ruined by one cop's rush to justice...and how the justice system completely failed him....10 yrs and counting of a man's life.....
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:35   #14
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He is not the only person to have been unfairly imprisoned. We have just had the release of another young lad, David Bain, for the alledged muder of his entire family. It has taken years and many many hearings before Courts till finaly the Case has been heard. He has been released, but as he has not actually gone back to court, he is still "accused" of muder. He actually has to wind a court battle to have his name cleared. Another very famous NZ case was "Arthur Allen Thomas". This was one of the worst stories NZ had ever heard.
And yes the Public does jump up and down about these issues. But it doesn't help to release someone. And I think nor should it. But I do think the "system" needs to change. What seems to happen, in my understanding, is that a high court does not re hear the entire case. The defendant brings a "part" of the case to the High court. They then have to convince the High court that the small piece of evidence is the key to havign a case reheard. Up untill just last year, the High court was in England. It is now a Court here in NZ. I am not entirely sure that is a good idea. At least judges in England do not hear of the cases in their everyday news items. Where as here in NZ it is a little different.
The Police investigator in charge of the Watson case is now at the top in NZ Police. A few "dirty little secrets" are about to be made public. And I think that may turn a few things around. But the only problem is, the Guy that has the story, who is also Ex Police, became Ex Police because he broke the law. So of course the Police are just sweeping his accusations under their carpet and saying the guy is untrust worthy.
For many of you US based people. The NZ and for that matter English Based Judicery system is very different to the US. You can only put forward evidence and facts. It is not like "Boston Legal" where a Legall team can argue with emotion. But then, maybe the US system is not like Boston legal. :-)
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Old 01-04-2008, 15:22   #15
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HaHa...I LOVE Boston Legal.....

I'm a kiwi born and bred...grew up in Havelock Nth...I'm VERY well aware of the Arthur Allen Thomas case...lived through the whole thing growing up.....and David Blain too.......both cases prove that something CAN be done....

My point is that I am absolutely appalled that the judicial system cannot see what you and I and thousands of others think is very palinly obvious....that the Watson verdict should be quashed as an "unsafe" verdict and at the VERY least a new trial ordered....I can see this from 10,000 miles away and a cursory look at the evidence....in fact not even at the evidence but at the QUESTIONS surrounding the evidence....beyond reasonable doubt????...not just no but HELL NO!!!!!

I'm embarking on a round the world cruise...you can BET I'll be photographing ANY vessel that remotely resembles that old blue/white ketch!
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