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Old 12-06-2016, 17:00   #46
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

We got hit sitting in our slip, lost about everything.

Things that did not die-
2 vhf handhelds
Garmin Chart plotter
Bilge pump

No holes in the hull so that was good..
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Old 12-06-2016, 17:08   #47
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Got hit sitting in the slip in Annapolis. Only damage was the windex melted and there were black carbon trails around both top tangs for the upper shrouds. Go figure.
Returning from fishing outside San Carlos Mexico in my 8 ft dingy, a squall came thru, a trimaran was hit right next to me inside the harbor. The masthead was smoking for quite a awhile after. Scary
My first experience was sailing thru Tacoma Narrows with a strong southerly really blowing us along. Thunder and lightening strikes all around. Talk about bad timing, we really dont even get that much of that in the PNW. Scary but kind of surreal. Too inexperienced to worry as much as I should have, but in the Narrows, you cant just stop. I thought it was kinda fun in a Capt Ron sort of way....
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Old 12-06-2016, 17:53   #48
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Who would say we came from monkeys? Maybe someone who believes praying will prevent lighting strikes.

Not quite sure what to make of that statement.

Monkeys and humans share a common ancestor. There is significantly more evidence of a shared ancestor between primates and humans then evidence praying will prevent a lighting strike.

Prove it! Oh yea, and use actual scientific data (you know, actual observed results) rather than just some speculative statements or espousing some "theory".

"Scientific theories involve quantitative modeling, experimental data, and repeated validation by prediction and observation". David Stone. Ph.D. Physics.

Regardless of who or what you pray to.

Faith is just that. If you don't believe in it, then you may set your own course, but please don't tell me how to set mine. By the way, it also takes faith to believe in the opposite of faith (given the lack of any real evidence). Just saying.

Let me guess the earth is only 6000 years old.
So such and such happened millions, no wait, now billions of years ago. We have no scientific evidence supporting this, just believe what we're saying. HMMMM Sounds like faith to me.

Please read the link.
https://answersingenesis.org/geology...ove-the-bible/
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:20   #49
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

I hope this thread doesn't devolve into one of those global warming type threads !

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Old 12-06-2016, 20:42   #50
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

First let me tell you what a theory is not. A theory is not some word where you say I have a theory based on my anecdotal evidence that I observed few times with my biased eyes. No that would be hypothesis and most likely a poorly formed one. Folks do that all the time I have a Theory about this or that. No you do not have a theory you have a hypothesis. That is a pet peeve of mine. That cause great misconceptions about the significant work involved to form a theory. To be more concise I will let Wiki explain the basic concept of a scientific theory.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

Your quote above

"Scientific theories involve quantitative modeling, experimental data, and repeated validation by prediction and observation". David Stone. Ph.D. Physics.

That is pretty good too and not sure how you are using that to make any point but mine. Granted the biological sciences do not utilize P-values as precise as physicist and I do believe there is a strong argument to be made against the branches of science depending so heavily on P-values to offer credence to a studies findings. Sorry about the digression which has too many caveats and is not applicable to the point at hand.

The Theory of Evolution has been one of the most accurate and predictive tools to be expounded in any of the sciences. The discovery of DNA by Watson and Crick cemented the validity of this well thought out and supported theory. I would go into much of the science of evolution but if you really are to get into the details we would need to delve deep into genetics, statistics, and biochemistry and if you are still stuck on the age of the earth at 6000 years and faith in the St James version of the bible as truth and reality then we don't have the time here. You do realize that the Saint James Bible is about 100th of the actual bible? The second largest collection of original text is just down the road while the rest is at the Vatican. If I was really going to teach you evolution by natural selection I would first need a skeptical and questioning mind. That is what science is all about. Please look at the scientific method. It is a simple beautiful work of art that is self correcting. It is imperative to the accuracy of observation and prediction that one be skeptical. Blind faith is for those willing to follow. Skeptical thought is for the leaders. Don't get me wrong many if not most skeptics are followers too on faith alone. A true skeptic probably would not waste their time on such soft targets as creationism.

The theory of evolution by natural selection is simple yet leads to seemingly infinite variation. I could simplify Evolution to it is elegant and simple form of genetic material that is not selected against and passed on to future a generation. Yet much of the beauty and elegance is lost in such explanations. The diversity of all life coded from four heritable nucleotide not unsuited to ever changing environment. It is not survival of the fittest or we came from apes. That is hogwash and lay folks jumping on to something they do not understand nor feel like taking the intellectual work to question their own misconceptions.

I have already gone on too long because this is totally off topic and has nothing to do with the thread. Which is a very good thread that I will not ruin by arguing about such a soft target as creationism. If you would like to start a thread that has to do with the relative merits of creationism vs evolution I might waste a bunch of time on your BS pseudoscience.

If anyone takes anything away from this please start using the correct term for your hypothesis and quit professing a theory. It is sort of like being a skipper of a row boat and calling yourself Admiral Chief.
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:50   #51
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

If it is not clear I will not respond to evolution vs creationism topic on this thread. It is a good thread and I don't want to see it ruined over such trivial pseudoscience.
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:51   #52
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

I might be wiling to argue about my last paragraph. It really is a pet peeve of mine.
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:59   #53
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

We have bee hit three times I think. We have observed that devices with local two pole rocker switches that disconnect both plus and negative with an air gap have survived. Most modern electronics have software power switches so off is still connected.
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Old 12-06-2016, 21:13   #54
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Very exquisite and well written viewpoint. I am fairly certain that you are still but espousing your personal viewpoint, and not actual science! Nice diatribe concerning "hypothesis" vs "theory" but still not really anything to it. BTW since you brought up P values, would the offending hypothesis you mentioned be "null" or "alternative"?

The theory of evolution has no concrete scientific data to support it. Did you even take the time to read the link I provided? I could issue several more. However, allow me to suffice in recommending a Google search for "Who won the Creation vs evolution debate?" (and actually watch it)

To be truthful though, you may, from your writings actually be smarter then the "science guy". Although you forgot to mention in all of your "high talk" the difference between one-sided and two-sided P values and when they should and should not be employed.

Alas, we are still just left with some guy talking about something he claims to understand, but still has not "proved it!" Just more "high talk" that doesn't explain anything.

Nice writing style though!
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Old 12-06-2016, 21:15   #55
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Quote:
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If it is not clear I will not respond to evolution vs creationism topic on this thread. It is a good thread and I don't want to see it ruined over such trivial pseudoscience.

Me either
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Old 12-06-2016, 21:39   #56
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Have a metal boat with a lightning rod. Still, I thankfully sail in low-lightning-occurrence western California.

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Old 13-06-2016, 14:41   #57
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Could we keep an argument over science versus religious beliefs out of a thread dealing with the the risks of lightning to boats and boaters? There are plenty of Creationist and Evolutionary Science forums on the internet for that.

On our actual topic, I think we've reached a summary:
1. Static charges concentrate on the tallest, sharpest points available, with masts on boats being obvious risks, independent of their conductive properties.
2. Once the two sides of the static charge connect, lightning is conductive electricity of massive voltage and amperage, making a large conductive path to ground (water) advisable.
3. Lightning without a clear conductive path takes multiple paths, melting conductors, destroying electronics, and generating explosive steam where it passes through small pockets of water.
4. The clearer the path to ground, the less the probability of damage, but given antennas and other available conductors, and fiberglass boats that do not supply a path themselves, extensive damage along the available conductive paths is likely from a direct hit.
5. The massive electromagnetic field produced means that stray currents may travel through any available path of least resistance; saline solutions being excellent conductors, human beings are at risk if they are anywhere in the field that is seeking a path to ground.
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Old 14-06-2016, 11:40   #58
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Practical Sailor has two excellent articles about lighting protection systems and the effectiveness of static discharge. The article linked below I was able to read with out signing in. The other article I had to sign into my account. The article below illustrates how small of an effect static dissipators have on lighting protection.
They do say that it may be enough to reduce your chances of a direct strike while surrounded by other sailboats in an anchorage or marina but no benefit when your the only stick around.

Sailboat Lightning Protection - Inside Practical Sailor Blog Article

The other article addresses the importance of maintenance of electrical connections in a lighting protection system. All worth a read.
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Old 21-06-2016, 05:37   #59
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Nothing to add to the "scientific" discussion ( I use that term loosely) regarding how to avoid lightning discharges into your boat.

I always thought that the Malacca Strait was a hotspot of lightning. I can vouch for being scared shitless on 3 occassions by VERY close strikes while traversing that piece of water. Both the dog and the wife went to hide under the oven. Only the dog managed to fit in the pots & pans space. The dog must have read the previous discussions re Faraday Cages.

HOWEVER, apparently Lake Maricambo in Venezeula is THE spot for lightning with an average of 232.52 flashes of lightning per square kilometer per year!

World Lightning Strikes Map

Malacca Straits do not even get a mention in the hotspot list. So there you go, another urban myth debunked.

I met a cat owner in Langkawi who said that his boat was struck three times in one year. I bet his insurance company was not pleased.

Kaspar de Wonda Dawg has nothing to add to the discussion re probability theory and the evidence for evolution. I do KNOW that K de WD is much smarter that the average teenage boy.
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Old 30-06-2016, 08:21   #60
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Re: Sailing During an Electrical Storm

Paul s/v Strider, Thanks for posting that link to the informative page.

---------

Here is a clip from it with a link to something else interesting to see.

"Live Lightning Maps
A few websites feature live lightning activity overlain on maps or satellite images. The one that we like best is LightningMaps.org. The maps depict real-time lightning data (with only a few seconds of delay) on your computer monitor. New lighting strokes appear as a red dot, then concentric white circles spread away from them like sound waves. Within 30 seconds the red dot fades to yellow, and the yellow fades to brown and disappears within one hour. The maps allow you to see areas of the world with current storm activity and watch the storms move across Earth's surface. It is an informative and educational website. A screenshot of lightning activity over Florida is shown on this page."

Watch the LIVE graphic showing lightning strikes (satellite data viewed over a map).
"When a stroke of lightning occurs, a red circle appears on the map with concentric white bands expanding outwards. The red circle persists for 30 seconds, then fades to yellow and then to brown over the following 60 minutes before disappearing. The website allows you turn on audio that produces a snapping sound with each lightning stroke that appears on your computer screen."

Real-Time Lightning Map :: LightningMaps.org
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