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Old 19-12-2008, 21:34   #61
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Ever see the north pacific gyr (sic).? It is a crime what we are doing to our planet.
Has anyone really ever seen the North Pacific Gyre? I've sailed through the neighborhood a couple of times, and while there was certainly too much trash, it wasn't much different than the trash elsewhere. I found that the amount of floating debris I saw depended more on the sea-state (thus my ability to see the trash) then on the particular location.

I don't dispute that there is a "floating garbage dump" out there somewhere, but I've not seen it, and the photos I've seen used to illustrate the problem were obvious fakes (a guy in a kayak in the middle of a landfill dump, for example).

Regardless, it's a shame what we humans let wash into the ocean.
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Old 20-12-2008, 01:22   #62
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Lets get a perspective on all this

Ah come on kiddies like it or not the place is a mess and WE are the ones being told WE must do something about it. I have never ever heard a single serious suggestion like making manufacturers pay for all the waste their packaging creates. Or the local market having to pay for the waste their bags and products create. Or how about the auto manufacturers paying for the polution their autos cause? Oh no! Heavens forbid THEY should change anything or reduce their massive profits a fraction of a cent per dollar. Nope gang it's US who must change the world, and by that logic take the blame when it all goes wahonnie shaped. Wonderful logic from the same gang that says,"sure we have just murdered almost a million people but the guy before us was guilty of murdering tens of thousands, with our help mind you. So, see it's justified!"
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Old 20-12-2008, 01:32   #63
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Ah come on kiddies like it or not the place is a mess and WE are the ones being told WE must do something about it. I have never ever heard a single serious suggestion like making manufacturers pay for all the waste their packaging creates. [etc, etc, etc.]
Don't look too closely, but WE are THEM.
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Old 20-12-2008, 02:19   #64
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the problem is not so much the paper or the plastic, it's the free

i'm not in favor of bans, either, but anyone who walks into a grocery store without reusable bags in which to take purchases home ought to be shot.
I think you will find that they have never been "free". Someone is paying $$$ for them - and it ain't the business .......just not itemised on your bill.

They have started charging for bags individually over here at the tills.

Hasn't prevented folk dumping them all over the town and countryside and in the sea......because we never really did that anyway, with plastic bags or anything else. But I appreciate cultures vary on that one

FWIW I think that anyone who walks into a grocery store with a resusable bag in which to take purchases home because they think it is "saving the planet" ought not to be allowed to vote


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Old 20-12-2008, 03:03   #65
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Old 20-12-2008, 07:27   #66
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Bottle bill trash bags penalties

I don't litter. I will turn my boat to retrieve a plastic bag if it blows overboard. So don't don't dump on innocent people by suggesting useless penalties of taxation or regulation because of the slobs. They will never change and all you are doing is making life difficult for yourself.
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Old 20-12-2008, 07:40   #67
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We now use canvas bag for all of our shopping. Prior to that we simply collected plastic bags each week from shopping and once we had quite a few we took them back to the local supermarkets which ALL had bins in the front of the store to recycle the bags. Not perfect but a better alternative to throwing them away.
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Old 20-12-2008, 10:40   #68
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... I at one time heard they were going to make those plastic bags out of some sort of starch compound that does biodegrade relatively quickly. Anyone hear of that?
Yes, I have. I saw a really cool PBS show on that one time. They can make plastic like products including "plastic" bags that are in reality made out of corn products and are very biodegradable compared to plastics. They can also make plastics that will degrade much more quickly in a water environment, by getting brittle quickly with exposure to UV light. They had a great example of a pop or beer 6-pack holder that absolutely crumbled after a week in water, thus greatly reducing the chance of sea life getting caught up in them.
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Old 20-12-2008, 17:15   #69
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Most of this is a crock. Paying 5 or 10 cents for a plastic bag at the store does two things . It makes someone 5 or 10 cents richer and still adds plastic to the waste stream. Degradable plastic is a joke. It might make the consumer feel better but molecular plastic is still plastic. What difference does it make if the plastic is consumed by pelagic species or phyto plankton. The food chain is the food chain, it's only a matter of degree but the end result is the same; the ultimate degradation of the oceans. Don't forget, the ocean is a giant food factory that feeds millions of us, If you destroy the factory we all starve.
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Old 20-12-2008, 18:32   #70
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our only means of transport is bicycles so we backpack everything. Weve had funny even dirty looks from baggers at grocery stores. They volunteer to load our backpacks but who would want anyone else to load their backpack. We absolutely hate it when merchants tell us to leave our backpacks upfront while we shop. If they insist we smile and leave. I have a large canvas bag that hangs off stern for boat trash, it requires washing off food residue before throwing away but with our saltwater spigot and sprayer at sink its not too much problem.
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Old 20-12-2008, 20:53   #71
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Most of this is a crock. Paying 5 or 10 cents for a plastic bag at the store does two things . It makes someone 5 or 10 cents richer and still adds plastic to the waste stream. Degradable plastic is a joke. It might make the consumer feel better but molecular plastic is still plastic. What difference does it make if the plastic is consumed by pelagic species or phyto plankton. The food chain is the food chain, it's only a matter of degree but the end result is the same; the ultimate degradation of the oceans. Don't forget, the ocean is a giant food factory that feeds millions of us, If you destroy the factory we all starve.
If the plastic is made from a truly biodegradeable material then I can see it not being such a problem. If the plasitic can degrade inside a turtle or whales stomach and provide them with nutrients, then we won't lose so many turtles and whales.
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Old 20-12-2008, 20:58   #72
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i don't know that plastic bags are a problem for whales, but...

...turtles confuse them for jelly fish, upon which they feed, and then the plastic bags block their intestines. Even a "biodegradable" bag wouldn't decompose quickly enough to solve such a problem.
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Old 20-12-2008, 22:17   #73
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Had our ancestors band pottery made from clay, we would not be finding it's remnants today! pottery should be banded along with glass. lol
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Old 21-12-2008, 04:46   #74
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...turtles confuse them for jelly fish, upon which they feed, and then the plastic bags block their intestines. Even a "biodegradable" bag wouldn't decompose quickly enough to solve such a problem.
Unfortunately they kill whales, sharks, and crocodiles as well as turtles. I believe it would be possible to make a bag that could break down in the stomach of these animals, and the sooner the better,
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Old 21-12-2008, 04:49   #75
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Had our ancestors band pottery made from clay, we would not be finding it's remnants today! pottery should be banded along with glass. lol
Pottery luckily doesn't clog up the intestines of marine creatures and doesn't contain toxic solvents or break down into toxic monomers. It mainly causes silicosis in those making it and uses a fair bit of energy.
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