Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-10-2011, 00:46   #31
Registered User
 
Katiusha's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 800
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
...They already have oil eating microbes, maybe we could train them to eat plastic and excrete oil.
The problem with plastic as compared to almost anything else in the dumps is that it's not biodegradable by anything in nature. It just remains. Big pieces will break down into tiny pieces and then plastic molecules, but it will not break down further. Nature has no way to deal with plastic - it doesn't know what it is.

Sylvia Earle did an extensive study on life-time of plastic (actually hoping that the same bacteria that eats oil would eat plastic)... Turns out some plastic will fall apart in nature in 500,000 years. Other plastic will stay the same forever.

It would be cool to make such a bacteria though - a lot of third world countries with garbage dumps will end up fairly rich, eh?
__________________

__________________
Katiusha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 09:50   #32
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

I've sent an email off to the company advertising the units, I would like to know how much money we are talking about here. Just from observation, it seems that the sun breaks down plastic down. I know that buried plastic shows no deterioration.
__________________

__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:41   #33
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Pacific
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 1,451
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
The problem with plastic as compared to almost anything else in the dumps is that it's not biodegradable by anything in nature. It just remains. Big pieces will break down into tiny pieces and then plastic molecules, but it will not break down further. Nature has no way to deal with plastic - it doesn't know what it is.
Are you saying that just because something is not bio-degradable it shouldn't be allowed? Does that mean we need to come up with a way to remove Half Dome in Yosemite? After all, that granite has been around for 93 million years, without significant degradation. What degradation has occurred has been the result of sun, wind, and water - exactly the same degradation process that is found with plastics.

Do you have an issue with Etruscan clay pots? They were thrown away in garbage dumps thousands of years ago and have not significantly degraded since then. When we dig them up now we put them in museums and marvel at them. But they are man-made artifacts, placed in dumps, that do not biodegrade. We still use clay pots to this day, from very poor societies up to very wealthy ones. They will never biodegrade.

There are lots of reasons to not like plastics - like many of them are poisonous, their components and manufacture can be carcinogenic, they are an eyesore (unlike Half Dome, at least IMO), but just trotting out the line that they do not biodegrade is meaningless. Lots of the things in "nature" don't biodegrade, but instead "degrade" by falling apart into smaller and smaller pieces as a result of sun, wind, water, etc. Sounds exactly like plastics.

I applaud the idea of coming up with a reasonable method to recycle or reuse discarded plastics, and the same can be said of just about all discarded human materials. If we can recycle/reuse just about anything it will help reduce our burden on the planet. But trotting out tired old arguments that don't mean anything is no way to get that to happen.

Oh yeah, what's your Jeanneau made out of?
__________________
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 10:44   #34
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Never saw a Jeanneau wrapped around a turtle, or a hunks half dome in the gut of a dead bird...

It would be nice if you wanted to be a devils advocate if you did it in a... relevant manner...
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 12:01   #35
Obsfucator, Second Class
 
dacust's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southeast USA.
Boat: 1982 Sea Ray SRV360
Posts: 1,743
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
What dollar? The claimed 80% efficiency. if the machine is 80% efficient, that means it costs $1.00 in electricity (or something, probably ignoring the cost of the machine and maintenance on it) to produce $.80 worth of oil, which supposedly will need some perhaps-non-trivial further refining, packaging, and shipping.

...

...
There are other ways to recycle plastic trash, pie in the sky at a 20% loss rate doesn't seem like a very good way to do anything--except skim money from well-intentioned donors who are poor at math.
The 80% efficiency is not saying $1.00 in .80 out. It's saying 80% of the mass of the plastic is converted to oil. 20% is left as sludge. I'm not saying that's good enough. I'm also not saying that means it is also energy and money doable. I'm just saying the 80% efficiency is not talking about money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Are you saying that just because something is not bio-degradable it shouldn't be allowed? Does that mean we need to come up with a way to remove Half Dome in Yosemite? After all, that granite has been around for 93 million years, without significant degradation. What degradation has occurred has been the result of sun, wind, and water - exactly the same degradation process that is found with plastics.

...
The issue is that nature has evolved to handle the dust that Half Dome will eventually turn into. Nature has NOT evolved to handle what plastic turns into. They are finding krill that their stomachs are almost full of almost microscopic pieces of plastic. The krill cannot tell the difference between small bits of plastic and small bits of edible organic matter. In some areas the krill is suffering from malnutrition. Sea Gulls are being found with plastic taking up almost 50% of the volume of their stomachs.

Plastic is NOT a natural part of nature. No matter what cute little comparisons people make between plastic and other materials in nature, it doesn't change that fact. Plastic is different and it is causing problems. Period.

I don't know if the process they have for sale is economically feasible. It'd be a little silly for them to market it if it wasn't feasible for at least some little niche market somewhere. BUT, the main point is that there is a working model, that once developed further, might just be a way to make use of some of that waste plastic out there. It's a possibility to be excited about.

If a way is found to actually make money from the plastic floating around, then the scroungers will find a way to start collecting it. Indeed the problem may become that in some places, people will start stealing bumpers from cars to turn in the plastic.

The cold hard facts are that it is highly unlikely that mankind will consciously decide to do what's right for ourselves or the planet. It will take economic impact for any action to take place. The mess has been caused because it was economically advantageous to ignore the problems. It won't be until the problems become economically disadvantageous that anything will be done about them.

In the meantime, when something like a plastic-oil converter comes along, it's kinda cool to think it might become possible to take advantage of mankinds greed to help clean up things a little bit.

-dan
dacust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 12:14   #36
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Pacific
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 1,451
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

I have seen birds strangled by jute twine, which is 100% bio-degradable. I've cut birds free of both plastic and non-plastic entrapment. You haven't seen part of the Jeanneau in the gut of a dead bird because it hasn't broken up into small enough bits...yet. By the OP's own declarations, it will break down in to smaller and smaller pieces over time (probably beyond our lifetimes, which just means that we won't see it), and eventually become pieces of a size that will be seen in the guts of animals - hundreds, thousands, or even tens of thousands of years from now.

And I have seen hunks of Half Dome (or at least its cousins) in the guts of dead birds. It's called a gizzard, and birds deliberately swallow small rocks which are used in place of teeth to grind up food materials. And there is evidence that bits of plastic of the appropriate size in bird gizzards can and do perform the same function.

It wasn't the plastic that got them, it was the human waste that was discarded haphazardly, without regard for possible effects on the environment. If human waste hadn't been collecting, and not degrading, over a long time period we wouldn't have the profession of archaeology. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't vilify plastics for not being biodegradable. For being present in the environment because of our callous and non-caring attitudes and thereby causing the death of other creatures, sure. But rather than wishing that we made our products so that "nature" would remove them, how about adjusting our attitudes so that we never put them in nature to start with? While it can be tough to teach an old dog new tricks, in this case it seems much more possible that we adjust our society so that we don't dispose of things in a reckless manner rather than hoping that we change our products so that we can continue to dump them haphazardly and let "nature" take care of the problem.

Just because our waste is biodegradable doesn't mean that that is a good thing. Say we replace plastic with something that biodegrades. Now birds and turtles don't get trapped or get their guts in a knot. But the biodegradation process results in a bloom of whatever microbes are involved. And that bloom results in a reduction in the oxygen content in the ocean, which leads to the death of fish, which leads to....

The solution is not to hope to come up with waste that we can let "nature" take care of, the solution is to take of our own waste ourselves. Which was actually what the OP in this thread was about. A device to recycle plastics into fuel (lots of discussions to be had around that subject ). If we could actually make it so that waste plastics have value, so that people wouldn't want to dump them...

I suspect that many cruising sailors may be better at this than many, but still just as guilty as a lot. Have you ever thought about what happens to your sails when they die? Unless you are one of a very small percentage, your sails are made of plastic, or some newer, even more exotic, and even less biodegradable material. Did you take them to a recycler? What about the plastic fantastic boat? When they die they usually get crushed up (starting the process or making them into little animal-ingestable sized bits) and dumped in a landfill. There are lots of posts in this thread that want to blame the "poor" for dumping their plastic trash, but what about the not so poor? Seems their trash just gets covered over to be a problem later, when we don't have to think about it (it is the next generation's problem)

I now lots of cruising sailors (myself included) who make a point of toting all their plastic trash to land, and not discharging it at sea. But do you really think there is a thought out approach to dealing with it on Nuku Hiva or Rangiroa?

This reminds me of the arguments about eating "100% natural" foods. Nightshade is 100% natural, and will kill you. Same with some mushrooms, and lots of other things. Just because something is 100% natural doesn't mean it is safe or good for you. Or maybe all the arguments about guns. Just because something is not biodegradable doesn't mean that the material is evil. It's all about personal responsibility and what we do with those materials, and, IMO that is a more cogent discussion than saying something is not biodegradable, so it must go.
__________________
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 16:13   #37
Registered User
 
Katiusha's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 800
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Dsanduril, thank you for thoughts about fad of bio-degradability.

Quote:
It's all about personal responsibility and what we do with those materials, and, IMO that is a more cogent discussion than saying something is not biodegradable, so it must go.
What are your thoughts about plastic to oil conversion?
__________________
Katiusha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 16:43   #38
Registered User
 
Don1500's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On Board, just above the water
Boat: Marine Trader 47
Posts: 1,176
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiusha View Post
My point was that with an alternative energy setup (solar, wind, wave) provided by a charity you don't need to spend that $5 to get the oil.
Until a process an be developed that can produce sufficient quantities using the original raw material to power the process, and output 80-90% of it's input to sellable product, this won't work.

Like this:
An oil refinery produces 90 barrels of sellable product (Oil, gas, jet fuel, plastic) for every 100 barrels of crude oil input, and the power needed to do the work = 5 barrels of oil (getting it out of the ground, refining, distributing). That is a profitable situation. Related to wind the only distribution is power lines, but it costs the equivalent of 101 barrels of oil to produce 100 barrels of product. Not a profitable situation. But like most of these programs the backers say "I doesn't work now but it will when gas costs $5.00 a gallon." Ten years ago they said $4.00 a gallon. They keep moving the bar because it will never reach what they think is the potential.
__________________
The Nomad Blog Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call
Everything I know about cruising I learned from Travis McGee - http://theroamingnomad.com
Don1500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2011, 18:05   #39
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Pacific
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 1,451
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
What are your thoughts about plastic to oil conversion?
That really boils down to the question of what I think about oil usage. I think the concept of conversion of waste plastic to oil is wonderful - at least it is if the oil is a useful/used product. It gives the waste plastic value, which is one sure way to change human behavior.

But it does lead to the discussion of how much oil we use, and the profligacy of modern human use of just about all resources. I like going home to my nice, warm bed every night. I like drinking cocoa and coffee that are transported thousands of miles from their growing region to satisfy my tastes. I like having sails on the boat that are made of plastic, last a long time, and perform well. But I also feel that these things are unsustainable at the current usage pace.

In the discussions above, we never got in to things like human food waste (or even human fecal waste). Those are biodegradable, natural materials, but when you put them together in the density that modern populations cause you exceed the ability of nature to cope with them in a reasonable way.

Which leaves me conflicted. I like my modern conveniences, and I see the toll they place on the world around me. Somehow we need to break that cycle. Converting waste plastic to oil is a start, but when we burn the oil we dump the waste products from that process into the atmosphere. And the attitude to that, in many places, is like that to the ocean - it's big and it can handle it. Anyone who has lived through the smog of LA, or Mexico City, or Beijing should recognize that that is just not true, but it doesn't resonate with very many people.

I guess I come down on this the same as many people do on guns - "guns aren't evil, what people do with them can be evil". It means we need to have a much larger discussion about human behavior, and that is a difficult discussion to have. I think we would rather distract ourselves with things like plastic in the ocean, probably because it is more concrete and visible (and we might be able to achieve visible results) than have a serious discussion about the reason it ends up there. It ends up there because we (the collective human we) consider it disposable. But with our numbers and our resource use we should probably consider nothing to be "disposable". We have always considered the world to be so big that we could dump our refuse anywhere, and move on if it got too noxious, but it just ain't that big a place anymore, and "nature" doesn't have a way of dealing with just about any of our refuse in the quantities we now produce.

But moving from a paradigm based on throwing away old stuff and buying new stuff, to one based on each of us being responsible for all that stuff from the moment we start using it to the moment it gets recycled back into other new stuff is going to be a difficult transition to make. And I'm just as guilty as anyone else (and maybe more than many). I'm an American, I live an American lifestyle. I drive too much, in a vehicle that gets too low a gas mileage. I eat too much processed food, and too much animal protein. I utilize modern "throw-away" electronics manufactured by next-to-slave labor using poisonous techniques and containing poisonous materials when they get tossed. But somehow we have to change that mind-set, and I actually think the cruising community is a good place to start. People in the cruising world generally come from technologically and economically advanced populations, which are generally pretty far removed from nature. And yet we live in an environment that by its nature brings us face to face with nature in a way that most urban populations don't see (it's an entirely different experience for many of the very poor of this world, who live with the vagaries of Mother Nature every second, but few of them are cruisers). While still maintaining some of our modern lifestyle habits, we do see first hand the impacts that some of them have, and we can reach out to our fellows and try to show them the light.

That's probably why I took such exception to what I interpreted as blaming the problem on plastics not being biodegradable. That sounds like telling people "here's the problem, and if you just change your product a little bit..." whereas, IMO, we should be telling people "here's the problem, and to correct it we really need to change our attitudes and our behavior". That's a tough row to hoe, and comes across as pompous and controlling, but I really don't like the alternative.

So, where do I come down on plastics to oil? In the real world a great idea if it can be made to work, but I think we all need to see that it is just moving the problem from one place (plastic floating around in the ocean) to another (combustion byproducts floating around in the atmosphere).
__________________
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 05:39   #40
Wayfaring Mariner
 
captain58sailin's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Homer, AK is my home port
Boat: Skookum 53'
Posts: 4,045
Images: 5
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Never bet against sin, it is human nature. The population levels are at the root of the problem, and I expect we are due for one of those black plagues or something similar. I read about the rise of anti-biotic resistant infections and I think some kind of super flu is just around the corner and will lay waste to a large portion of the population and we will need all that scrap plastic laying around to scoop up drinking water out of the mud puddles.
__________________
" Wisdom; is your reward for surviving your mistakes"
captain58sailin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2011, 05:36   #41
Registered User
 
Katiusha's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 800
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
...
IMO, we should be telling people "here's the problem, and to correct it we really need to change our attitudes and our behavior". That's a tough row to hoe, and comes across as pompous and controlling, but I really don't like the alternative.

...
Thank you for a great post! You have to talk, to point out the problem and solutions to facilitate a change in attitude and behaviour. So adding this information to a well-read forum is a great way to do it!
__________________
Katiusha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2011, 07:59   #42
Registered User
 
mbianka's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,125
Images: 1
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiusha View Post
Thank you for a great post! You have to talk, to point out the problem and solutions to facilitate a change in attitude and behaviour. So adding this information to a well-read forum is a great way to do it!
IMO The problem is not here in the U.S. or at least in my community. Every other week they pick up containers we citizens put out that have glass and plastic. The other week they take paper magazines etc.. These are all recycled and the town makes some money and it does not go into the land fill it a win win situation for us taxpayers.
I use to take my old lead acid batteries to the auto store and pay them $5.00 to take it. Then I discovered a metal recycling plant ten minutes from my house that would pay ME $10 for each battery. They also take various metals, old computers (I have 7) etc... I made several hundred dollars recently just cleaning out the garage. Another win win situation. I think green is nice but, putting green in my wallet at the same time is even better. These plastic to oil converters will probably best be used on some of the more remote islands or even not so remote islands where the locals will have more of an incentive to pick up the plastic trash on the beaches and in the waters around them. My sailing waters and beaches are actually very free of plastic debris from my observation. I saw much more when I visited Rangiroa in the Pacific a few years ago. Here in my area plastic is already recycled to a large extent. It's those who live in other places like the islands that need the financial incentive to start recycling. Perhaps this plastic to fuel technology will provide that incentive for those areas.
__________________
Capt. Mike
mbianka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2011, 09:04   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbianka View Post
IMO The problem is not here in the U.S. or at least in my community. Every other week they pick up containers we citizens put out that have glass and plastic. The other week they take paper magazines etc.. These are all recycled and the town makes some money and it does not go into the land fill it a win win situation for us taxpayers. . . .
Not really. In most municipal "recycling" systems the "sorted" items end up on the same landfill as the unsorted garbage. But at least the municipal dumps put the sorted stuff in specific locations in the dump for "future mining." The whole USA (and maybe other countries) "garbage dump" industry has changed in the last several decades from simple piling up trash to carefully laying pipes and layers of dirt as the "pile of garbage" grows so that in the future methane and other useful products can be mined/recovered.

- - That is, it is not profitable today to do much "recycling" as using new product, oil, trees, etc. is still cheaper. But nothing ever stays the same or as the old saying goes, "The only constant in this world is change."

- - So sometime in the future these resources "stored" in dumps can be utilized but only when current raw resources become scarce or too expensive in comparison. When that will happen nobody really knows although many try to predict it with false certainty.

- - Dsanduril's discussion are excellent and IMHO end up centering upon the need for humans to take actions to limit/terminate indiscriminate dumping/throwing away of trash. Unfortunately that will never happen.

- - Basically, all altruistic endeavors arise when people have "excess" income. That is they earn/gather more than they and their families need to live. It is the "excess" production that makes available money/capital for societal purposes like education, government, conveniences and luxury products.

- - When you cruise the world you will encounter the other 85% (wag) of the humans in this world who have no "excess" production - they use all their available labor to just subsist. Environmental impact awareness is not anywhere in their consciousness.

- - So the discussion devolves into - can "cleaning up" the 1st World countries (the 15% of the world's population) have enough impact/effect on world-wide pollution to make a difference? Some say yes, some say no.
__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2011, 09:32   #44
Registered User
 
mhans's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Boat: C&C Corvette 31
Posts: 12
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

An amazing innovation. While it may not do much to alleviate sdowney717's extreme examples, every little bit helps.
__________________
mhans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2011, 15:42   #45
Obsfucator, Second Class
 
dacust's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Southeast USA.
Boat: 1982 Sea Ray SRV360
Posts: 1,743
Re: Plastic into Oil at Home !

Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Not really. In most municipal "recycling" systems the "sorted" items end up on the same landfill as the unsorted garbage. But at least the municipal dumps put the sorted stuff in specific locations in the dump for "future mining." The whole USA (and maybe other countries) "garbage dump" industry has changed in the last several decades from simple piling up trash to carefully laying pipes and layers of dirt as the "pile of garbage" grows so that in the future methane and other useful products can be mined/recovered.

- - That is, it is not profitable today to do much "recycling" as using new product, oil, trees, etc. is still cheaper. But nothing ever stays the same or as the old saying goes, "The only constant in this world is change."

...
"most"? I might believe "some", but not most. "most" for some types of plastic (types 8,7,6, maybe 5), and "most" for some other types of waste.

Using recycled plastic is cheaper than new plastic. That is for type 1 and type 2 plastics. Recycled glass is cheaper. Same for paper and cardboard.

I'm not gonna say what company I work for, but 10 years ago we were a $4 billion company, 100% recycled products. We are now much bigger, but due to acquisition of other companies that had divisions not 100% recycled, we are no longer 100%. But, $10 billion and 90% recycled (the rest is renewable). (I'm guessing at the percentage based on my perceived size of the divisions involved... perceived from my lowly cube in the dungeon of corporate headquarters.)

Except for the rare anomaly, I'd say all plastic of type 1 and 2 that is picked up for recycling is actually recycled. Most 3 and 4. Same goes for paper, cardboard and glass. And definitely for metal. Other harder-to-recycle plastics are dealt with, in varying degrees, like you say, or worse. Some refuse to pick it up and it ends up mixed in the general landfill. Some do like you say and at least bury it somewhere it can be found later.

You are totally right that the altruistic movements are from the rich. So, it's cool when an invention comes along that may, (after development, maybe), be able to tap into mans greed to get them to clean up because they can make money at it.

-dan
__________________

dacust is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Three-Prong Oil Pressure Switch and Electric Fuel Pump - Is a Fuel Pump Relay Needed? sdowney717 Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 4 29-09-2011 08:06
Oil Leak in Nanni Kubota 2.45 Eco Asmodeane Engines and Propulsion Systems 4 21-09-2011 00:53
Why Two Oil Dipsticks on Perkins 4-108 ? dancamp009 Engines and Propulsion Systems 16 22-08-2011 07:45
How Do I Change My Oil ? flatlander Engines and Propulsion Systems 25 12-07-2011 17:05
What does your ATF oil look like when you change it ? sgtPluck Propellers & Drive Systems 42 06-07-2011 12:24



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.