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Old 25-06-2014, 11:42   #31
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

While I am entirely sympathetic to the OPs plight, I am totally opposed to posting the name of the other party.

Why? You will never hear the other side. And for sure, there is another side to this story.

The other guy probably will never hear of this thread. But his reputation will be trashed with no defense.

David
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Old 25-06-2014, 11:55   #32
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pirate Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

I was pretty relaxed about things with my OZ trip.. had sent a contract to the owner and asked him to sign it.. I did not check before they left the boat and later discovered he had not signed.
Now what I should have done was refused to sail till it was signed.. or flown home with the crew.. however folks had been okay up till then so I set out with faith in humanity..
He later joined the boat in Samoa and once we'd sailed I again asked him to sign the contract and he flat out refused.. then demanded we change course to Vanuatu where he jumped ship and his missus had set up 2 crew to join the boat.
By this time I'd invested too much of my time and money to quit so figured I'd resolve it in Perth.
Lucky for me.. (tho' by this time I was broke and 1000's of miles from home).. I had a contact there from CF who turned out to be a bludi hero and gave me a room for as long as needed, spending cash and drove me around to find a lawyer..
Hence my question about e-mails setting out payment expectations and/or agreements between you..
That's what saved my bacon.. I'd saved every bit of correspondence we'd had.. it was enough to prove I had been hired and my quote had been accepted.. in other words an informal contract.. good enough for the respective lawyers to reach a settlement.
Else its your word against his..
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Old 25-06-2014, 13:04   #33
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

To me there's a simple solution to the problem.....at your earliest opportunity remove the boat from where it is and only release it back to him when he pays.

In the world of debt collections it's called asset retrieval.

Completely legal.....at least in Canada.
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Old 25-06-2014, 13:08   #34
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000 islands View Post
To me there's a simple solution to the problem.....at your earliest opportunity remove the boat from where it is and only release it back to him when he pays.

In the world of debt collections it's called asset retrieval.

Completely legal.....at least in Canada.
The rest of the world calls it theft.
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Old 25-06-2014, 13:27   #35
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pirate Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000 islands View Post
To me there's a simple solution to the problem.....at your earliest opportunity remove the boat from where it is and only release it back to him when he pays.

In the world of debt collections it's called asset retrieval.

Completely legal.....at least in Canada.
Well in OZ the police shot out in a rib and told me it was turn back or go to jail without passing go..
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Old 25-06-2014, 13:27   #36
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000 islands View Post
To me there's a simple solution to the problem.....at your earliest opportunity remove the boat from where it is and only release it back to him when he pays.

In the world of debt collections it's called asset retrieval.

Completely legal.....at least in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
The rest of the world calls it theft.
Oops....you must have a court order first..
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Old 25-06-2014, 15:22   #37
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Wow!

All kinds of different advice here!

I'm not an attorney, but I can tell you this - don't make threats, don't impersonate an attorney or make fake law firm letterhead, don't steal the boat...

gather up anything you have that supports your case and file a claim in small claims court. After winning a judgement, file a lien and follow the law in terms of getting restitution. The suggestion to find others that he has screwed and team up with them might also help quite a bit.

Good luck!
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Old 25-06-2014, 15:25   #38
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

If you can document that there was an informal contract, small claims court is where to take it. Just be very detailed in your preparations, and present the facts clearly and economically, with annotation as to which pages the documentation is on.

Many years ago, I had a small claims court action. The judge was attentive, no BS, and decided for us. You can do it, too. It is what small claims court is for.

In the event the other guy doesn't show up, the judge automatically decides in your favor. And once you have the court order, the Marshall can accompany you to the other guys bank, and the withdrawal is made from his account.

Every time someone backs down from taking the appropriate action, the baddies learn more about how they "get away with it".

If on considered reflection, you think Delancey's suggestion of readdressing it when both of your heads are cooler could be a winner, definitely do that first.

But do take a page from Boatman61's hard fought for book and get a signature on a contract next time.

Ann
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Old 25-06-2014, 16:33   #39
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Well, the OP isn't commenting. I say enough advice, time for rampant speculation!

On the one hand we have a guy from Florida named Lars who has a forty five footer, and who likes to drink too much.

On the other hand we have Dean, a likable-enough seeming Cruisers Forum member who is eager and enthusiastic to log miles, and has tattoos (just not the nazi kind)

Lars needs crew and thinks thinks Dean seems experienced enough on the internet, but when Lars meets Dean in person and sees he has tattoos, Lars decides Dean is one of "those" kind of people and generational friction ensues…

Do I have it right so far?
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Old 25-06-2014, 16:36   #40
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pirate Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Doubt its the tattoo's..
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Old 25-06-2014, 16:42   #41
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Well, the OP mentioned the owner attempted to use disinformation about his tattoos to make life difficult for the OP. People can be very judgey about tattoos, although in this case I don't know why, aren't sailors supposed to have tattoos?

Regardless, what did the OP do or not do that made the Owner so displeased as to actually go out of his way a lie about the swastikas?
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Old 25-06-2014, 17:42   #42
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Wow!

All kinds of different advice here!

I'm not an attorney, but I can tell you this - don't make threats, don't impersonate an attorney or make fake law firm letterhead, don't steal the boat...

gather up anything you have that supports your case and file a claim in small claims court. After winning a judgement, file a lien and follow the law in terms of getting restitution. The suggestion to find others that he has screwed and team up with them might also help quite a bit.

Good luck!
It is not clear there is any evidence a court would accept that the owner had a contract and failed to live up to it. Not saying the OP is not telling the truth, just that if it is a he said/he said the court may well call it a draw.

On the other hand pretending to be a lawyer (any place but on the internet) is a crime (lawyers usually make the laws and they don't take kindly to non lawyers stepping on their toes) . Same for taking a boat, sometimes even if you have some type of court papers; especially if the boat is not in the court's jurisdiction.

Way too many unknowns to speculate here, and that's the problem. Sorting them out will run up way too many billable hours if you use a lawyer. Not dotting all the "I"s and crossing all the "T"s and the OP could wind up in real trouble.

Some posters have suggested taking possession of the boat, but that assumes knowledge of the boats location. Others have suggested trying to get a court order to get money out of the owners bank account, but that assumes not only knowledge of where the bank account is located, and it is in the court's jurisdiction but also that there is money in the account.
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Old 25-06-2014, 18:08   #43
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Lars bought the boat in fl. Taking it home to ct. Prior to that he lived in NYC in my town. I had known him for 3 years prior to this. He knows my tattoos. He was trying to sabotage my ride to Norfolk. I have not come across a boat owner like this before

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Old 25-06-2014, 18:13   #44
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Dean,

What we're not hearing from you is that you have documentation of your contract with the boat owner......

If you have nothing and no witness, you're not in a good position, legally.

For the future, remember what a high school English teacher told me: "If it's not written down, it didn't happen." Even if you wrote in your personal log what the details of the agreement were, that would have bearing on the matter. Your log is a legal document.

Ann
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Old 25-06-2014, 18:19   #45
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Re: Owner refuses to pay crew, need advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Samuels View Post
Lars bought the boat in fl. Taking it home to ct. Prior to that he lived in NYC in my town. I had known him for 3 years prior to this. He knows my tattoos. He was trying to sabotage my ride to Norfolk. I have not come across a boat owner like this before

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You knew this guy 3 years and knew his history and still made the trip with him. This is starting to sound like a personal issue.

These armchair lawyer threads are pointless.

You are not a dumb guy and the advice has been given.

Go to court or not. Get a lawyer or not.

Other than getting this guy's name on the internet and some folks to commiserate with you I am not sure what you gain here.

The only guy that comes to mind that has experience with what you have is Boatman - there is a huge thread on his experience and the CF forum rallied around him pretty good.

If you decide to fight this guy legally get on with it. Otherwise it's a painful $2k lesson.

BTW - Forget all the BS about tattoos and sabotaging your ride if you are going to court. This is a contract matter - simple. And it's a small claims issue - simple.

You haven't answered the fundamental issue - Is there a provable contract?

Peace...
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