Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-06-2015, 00:39   #76
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Well, the overwhelming majority of the entire world, not just sailors use particularly double sheet bends with excellent results. Indeed it is universally, and I mean universally considered an excellent knot for its specified application so you and the other commenter here would appear to be an outlier. To call it "outdated" is certainly an exaggeration. I have never had one fail (correctly applied) in more than 30 years sailing under all conditions. I have heard of the Zeppelin loop, of course, it is a standard in all even fairly basic knot books. Used to be used for tethering airships. And???

I don't have time right now to thumb through the whole thread… deadlining on a refit project. But z loops or z bends if you like don't strike me as particularly good for joining two lines of SIGNIFICANTLY UNEQUAL DIAMETER, which is the primary function of the double sheet bend.
Would you really use the double sheet bend for a critical purpose if load was to be applied and released repeatedly eg towing a boat? I think most people would resort to tying two bow lines.

A slighly modified Zeppelin (see the linked thread) is brilliant at joining lines of not just significant, but very different diameter. The double sheetbend can slip extremely easily if load is applied and released a few times (it doesn't take many). In water the double sheet bend is hopeless if load is released.

Shall we take this converstaion to the Zep thread? I don't want to hijack Wottie's thread.

SWL
__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 00:54   #77
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Would you really use the double sheet bend for a critical purpose if load was to be applied and released repeatedly eg towing a boat? I think most people would resort to tying two bow lines.

A slighly modified Zeppelin (see the linked thread) is brilliant at joining lines of not just significant, but very different diameter. The double sheetbend can slip extremely easily if load is applied and released a few times (it doesn't take many). In water the double sheet bend is hopeless if load is released.

Shall we take this converstaion to the Zep thread? I don't want to hijack Wottie's thread.

SWL
Well perhaps later. As far as a double sheet bend, depends. Each knot has its own applications and cherrypicking particular circumstances in order to refer to a whole class of extremely useful bends as "oudated" seems a little rich to me. And as far as "resorting" to using opposed bowlines, there seems to be a wide divergence of opinion on that, as well as the use of your favourite "loop masquerading as a bend", the Zeppelin:

Zeppelin Bend: Security and Strength

Have any links to actual data in scientifically conducted trials?
__________________

__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 03:18   #78
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,707
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post

Have any links to actual data in scientifically conducted trials?
Yep, Estarzinger posted his results here on CF.

I'm with SWL, The ZB deserves to be much better known and used widely. It s far superior to the SB and even the DSB in every way.

(I have heard of the Zeppelin loop, of course, it is a standard in all even fairly basic knot books. Used to be used for tethering airships. And???
The so called Zeppelin Loop is a bastard child of the Zeppelin Bend . And... no, the loop wasn't used for tethering airships, the Bend was.)
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 03:23   #79
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

I have been busy and haven't had a chance to reply.

Muckle Flugga, results of lad tests Evans has done can be found here:
Load testing

I will copy the last few posts over to the Zeppelin thread so Wottie's thread is not disrupted:
Zeppelin Bend - next best thing to sliced bread

Sorry Wottie .

SWL
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 03:33   #80
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Let me get a quick word in here .

I was of the same opinion as Muckle Flugga until my eyes were opened and then I saw the truth. The Zep is truly superior.

The whole world once thought the earth was the centre of the universe.
The whole world once thought Newtonian physics was the only way to understand motion.
The era of the sheet bend is over… sorry...
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 03:45   #81
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Let me get a quick word in here .

I was of the same opinion as Muckle Flugga until my eyes were opened and then I saw the truth. The Zep is truly superior.

The whole world once thought the earth was the centre of the universe.
The whole world once thought Newtonian physics was the only way to understand motion.
The era of the sheet bend is over… sorry...
'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 03:56   #82
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..
Strike me pink cobber, ya flamming mad; a monkey's fist to where the sun don't shine.

Seizing the ends, good god old boy, that takes time and effort and another thing to stuffed up or forgotten.

Belay the sheet bend and seize the new dawn, breath the airship ways and haul away on the good knot Zep.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 04:13   #83
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
'Sorry' to you too Sir... I'm a traditionalist... they can stow those new fangled airship knots where the monkey stows its nuts... I'll stick to the known and proven.... seize the ends and..if its a long tow time wise ...have the 'towee' hang off his anchor and make the tow line fast to a few cables of chain to maintain a steady load.

Or use a Carrick Bend... or maybe even a double one.

Knock me down with a dead wombat... next thing you know people will be wanting two eggs on Sunday..
ROFL! What if you don't have time for seizing and what if you want to untie the lines afterward (zero hope with a Carrick)? There is absolutely no need for seizing with the Zep. To top if off, the breaking load is substantially higher than a double sheet bend (it is roughly the same as a Carrick).

I have tied the Zep quickly and easily in the dark on a pitching deck to join two snubber lines (we needed to extend in a hurry without hauling up some of the chain), and it has not only held in 30+ knots of almost continuous wind for 48 hours with lots of jerking as the boat was flung around in gusts, but has been dead easy to undo with one hand afterwards.

I had spent ages beforehand researching all the data (not a huge amount to be found, but still for me enough to be conclusive), reading climbing forums and knot tying forums, doing a few tests between our winches myself, simply shaking the line and seeing how easily a sheet bend and even double sheet bend undo each and every time (the Zep NEVER budges), but using the Zep in what must be about the worst conditions (and numerous times now) and being able to easily untie it afterwards has me an absolute convert .

SWL

This shot was taken underwater after about 30 hours of the meltemi howling. The Zep held our 48 footer safely. This was the first occasion, but has been repeated since. You can see by the diamter of the nylon how it is thinning under load:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	284.8 KB
ID:	103067  
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 04:23   #84
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,947
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
ROFL! What if you don't have time for seizing and what if you want to untie the lines afterward .......
SWL
Thats why sailors carry knives... you know what they say... a sailor without a knife is as useless as.....

I bet you want 2 eggs on saturdays as well.......
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 04:34   #85
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,330
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Thats why sailors carry knives... you know what they say... a sailor without a knife is as useless as.....

I bet you want 2 eggs on saturdays as well.......
Yep and coddled too if you please, my good man.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 07:40   #86
Registered User
 
Muckle Flugga's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Aboard the Ocean wave
Boat: 55' sloop.
Posts: 1,426
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Gosh, I feel like I've just stumbled into some sort of religious convention. Certainly has converts.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Little bang theory.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	135.4 KB
ID:	103079  
__________________
‘Structural engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyse as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess in such a way that the public at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.’
Muckle Flugga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 07:49   #87
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga View Post
Gosh, I feel like I've just stumbled into some sort of religious convention. Certainly has converts.
LOL, not just converts, we are on a crusade .

Muckle, it is like people have blindfolds on when it comes to knots: "This is the way it has always been done and it is sacrilegious contemplating there could be a better way".

Seriously, what bend would you use to tie two snubber lines or two tow lines together in rough conditions where the safety of your boat depended on it?

Would you really choose a double sheet bend? I would not hesitate using a Zeppelin and have used it .

The Knot Mistress
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 07:56   #88
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,618
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post

The Knot Mistress
Cardinal Seaworthy Lass
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:23   #89
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

The only thing wrong with the Zep, is that its not an Alpine butterfly. The zep is a very good knot otherwise........for amateurs
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2015, 09:33   #90
Moderator
 
Seaworthy Lass's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Aluminium cutter rigged sloop
Posts: 12,810
Re: Outdated Sea Traditions

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
The only thing wrong with the Zep, is that its not an Alpine butterfly. The zep is a very good knot otherwise........for amateurs
Salty, I would opt for the Alpine over the Double sheet bend in the blink of an eye - siblings need to stick together .

SWL

PS I have given up avoiding thread hijack. No one seems to want to shift the conversation to the the Zep thread. Wottie, do you want to rename the thread "Why we should all convert to the Zeppelin Bend"?

SWL
__________________

__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea." Isak Dinesen
"To me the simple act of tying a knot is an adventure in unlimited space." Clifford Ashley
Seaworthy Lass is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Long Before Electronics Are Outdated? Julie Mor Marine Electronics 38 01-12-2014 13:48
Using an Outdated Eldridge Tide and Pilot Book rockDAWG General Sailing Forum 26 09-10-2014 13:42
outdated Mustang Survival inflatable dweller Health, Safety & Related Gear 1 05-11-2013 14:03
Outdated Paper Charts MDhillon Navigation 6 24-03-2010 15:49
Traditions and Supersticions Steve Kidson Off Topic Forum 24 04-06-2007 14:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 22:16.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.