"Opinons" is interesting, personal experience is valuable.

cooper · 14-07-2008, 04:18

I was going to give myself a "time out and have a good think" spell., I still will.. Tao has made an observation that sums me up perfectly. I have been contemplating the nature of the discussions that happen here. It seems that the most controversial situations amount from "opinions" as opposed to "when this happened to me, this is what I did"..I believe it is beholden on all of us to listen to people who give us their real situations. To make a balance of judgment on people who post on this site about personal observations of what happened to them. The "controversial subjects" from my re reading contain reiteration of hearsay. I have found very few actual,first hand accounts posted here. If they are not here ..why? I would hope that it is not because the people involved dont take us seriously. It really is our choice. Do we want a site that is real and relevant, or is it a site that we spend our time "postulating" about what may be....
The wheels thing is a different subject really, but when frustration ,happens , .......

Wotname · 14-07-2008, 05:03

Interesting post Mr Cooper.
What struck me was the different definition we can give to a word; in this instance "opinion". I see you a using in a different way than me.

When I post something around here and qualify the post as "opinion" (or IMO etc) I nearly aways mean that this is something that I have done, carried out, experienced etc and this is the result that occured for me in that particular instance HOWEVER I don't that the proof, data, knowledge or whatever to post it a proven FACT.

Another way of saying how I have been using the word opinion is "this is a theory that agrees with the observed outcomes that I have EXPERIENCED however there may be other theories that also agree with the observed outcomes. Probably one of the theories are wrong"

In the circumstances where my hard won knowledge tells me I know why something is a certain way and I can prove it by reference to other accepted sources, mathmatical analysis or logic etc, then I tend just to state the subject as a fact and not an opinion (and defend that "fact" until someone who is smarter proves me wrong). I don't like being wrong so I tend to be pretty sure I am right before sticking my neck and saying so. What I like about CF to date, is that there are some very knowledgeable (sp?) people here that keep people like me "honest".

I can see you are referring to opinion as "some idea that sounds it might be right or has been deduced from reading, bar talk or what have to".

Maybe I have been using the word incorrectly (IMO

).

I will be looking forward to the responses to your post.

exfishnz · 14-07-2008, 05:06

In regards to some people with real maritime experience not posting very much, today I spoke with a CF member who is very talented & experienced in his maritime field but apparently he gets members complaining to the mod's about him (for basically nothing)

As a result he no longer contributes as much to this forum as he would like to.

In regards to Wheels, I think there may be a number of members contemplating taking the same route.

cooper · 14-07-2008, 05:59

Wot name,
I am not sure if this is helpful or not.....I am saying "I" would like to hear from people who have actually "done it".... In my experience of life , they have said the least and made the most sense...

**Ex-Calif** · 14-07-2008, 06:20

No offence to Cooper but this has nothing to do with sailing and is likely to simply start a fist fight.

It's the internet - If the mods choose to make a rule that states no opinions allowed then we should follow it.

I don't think they will.

Can we pretty please talk about something at least loosely related to sailing - Did anyone else but me sail this weekend???????????????

**Pblais** · 14-07-2008, 06:44

Officially speaking we don't set limits on what persons can post about other than the topic needs to be about boating. That covers a wide range of topics. How those discussions are conducted are only governed by the current rules that basically insists people avoid arguments on line and use language appropriate to a broad family audience. We have no plans to change those fundamental requirements to any great extent. We may add or clarify the rules as required.

Information can be gained from many ways and the exchange about ideas be they precise or imprecise and to any level of detail is left to the reader alone. Uninformed members are free to participate where they will. If you feel a post is not to your level of satisfaction you are entitled to move on to another thread or start a new one.

Too often one thread starts and members continue to chase down a rat hole going no place. Such has been the primary problem with almost all "problem threads". The create new topic icon is available to all members. Should a thread become uninformative to any one then it may be time to start a new thread and try to redirect the discussion by restaing the question. We do not believe threads have required qualifications for participation other than being a registered member.

If you start a thread you don't have the right to restrict posters with preconditions. We have the most success when topics are conducted in an open environment. It requires all members be more tolerant and maximizes everyones ability to participate.

If anyone feels they require a special or exclusive forum they may be wise to find one through other sources. Voy.com will permit you to start your own discussion groups for free and make some of your own rules. We have no plans for anything like that now. Technology may allow us to do more member based options down the road. If we can provide more options so members can do more activities under their own control I think we will attempt to provide them. There are some new things in the works and announcements will provide details as they become available.

**Pblais** · 14-07-2008, 06:50

Quote:

Can we pretty please talk about something at least loosely related to sailing - Did anyone else but me sail this weekend???????????????

Start a new thread now! It's the only way we get new stuff worth reading. A weekly "Who had a great sail this weekend" could be a fine new feature and anyone can start it. Even if you didn't have a great sail or maybe you just want to know it was possible. If you don't see something you like then start a thread about what you want to see discussed.

**GordMay** · 14-07-2008, 06:57

Opinions are a lot like wives (partners?).
Notwithstanding that some are more presentable and/or useful than others; we seem to be most attached to our own.

A few of us would be advised to more carefully consider our choice (of both).

ssullivan · 14-07-2008, 07:17

He he he!! Gord's reply is a great one.

Really, we can all complain that this board isn't perfect, but if you can direct me to one out there that is better.... (I don't think there are any. )

One thing I'm curious with, Cooper is what you are defining as "real situations" and people who are out there. I ask because I do feel that someone who may not be actively cruising, but does own a boat and has experience on it on the weekends could be a contributer that helps a lot, even if it's through reading knowledge.

As an example, I'm not sure if Pblais has "cruised" far and wide, but the man knows his stuff and has made helpful posts time and time again on questions I've asked. He may be in VA and doing local sailing right now, but as far as boats go, he's probably ahead of many "cruisers" in knowledge. (Paul, had to use somebody as an example... sorry! Also,apologies if you have already cruised and returned... I just don't know that info. Your helpful autopilot posts had you fresh in my head) His posts are detailed, informative and thoughtful.

On the other hand, mine probably need a lot more work, but I do only talk from real life experiences. Nothing is theory. It's all stuff I've done before, including the horrid political rat holes I tend to end up in.

All in all, it's my opinion that you can't find a board with more knowledge on it.

Sure we end up in some dark areas from time to time, but we all keep coming back... why? Where else can you get 20 qualified and*different* opinions about a problem you face with your boat in 6 hours?

imagine2frolic · 14-07-2008, 07:57

It's called brainstorming, and sharing. I like what I read here. I always alllow myself to reject somethings I read without being angry. Except for once when someone got a little personal with me calling me a liar

in a sorry attempt to being polite about it. I gave him my 2cents, and went on to another thread.

Sulli's right, where else can you get 20 different views on the same subject?

imagine2frolic · 14-07-2008, 08:00

P.S.,

I also use actual events that have happened to me most of the time. Sometimes it is nothing but an opinion I give.........

**GordMay** · 14-07-2008, 08:26

Experience = What
Theory = Why (and/or So What)
Practice = Applied Theory

Once again, I feel the need to reiterate that “theory” does not purport to replace “experience - it attempts to “explain” it; such that having experienced a singular event, we can extrapolate the specific lesson learned to the general pattern. In scientific reasoning, this specific to general pattern is often used with inductive reasoning, where facts or observations about a situation are evaluated to determine whether a generalization (which may be a theory, thesis, or conclusion) can be made.

**GordMay** · 14-07-2008, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

I also use actual events that have happened to me most of the time. Sometimes it is nothing but an opinion I give.........

When experience leads to opinion, I call this LEARNING.

**knottybuoyz** · 14-07-2008, 08:56

It's always been my experience with "opinions" that everyone is entitled to one (or more) no matter how rediculous it is or they are!

scallywag · 14-07-2008, 08:58

Site Aministrators, Site Helpers, and Participants,
Thankyou for all you do to make this board available. Opinions are perspectives. I know a number of you sail or power and a lot of you have experiences. As an educator, I like GordMay's "experience leads to opinion, I call this LEARNING". I am still learning and this site is very helpful.
Thanks,
John

14-07-2008, 04:18	#1
cooper Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Back of the Dandenongs, Australia Posts: 909 Images: 6	"Opinons" is interesting, personal experience is valuable. I was going to give myself a "time out and have a good think" spell., I still will.. Tao has made an observation that sums me up perfectly. I have been contemplating the nature of the discussions that happen here. It seems that the most controversial situations amount from "opinions" as opposed to "when this happened to me, this is what I did"..I believe it is beholden on all of us to listen to people who give us their real situations. To make a balance of judgment on people who post on this site about personal observations of what happened to them. The "controversial subjects" from my re reading contain reiteration of hearsay. I have found very few actual,first hand accounts posted here. If they are not here ..why? I would hope that it is not because the people involved dont take us seriously. It really is our choice. Do we want a site that is real and relevant, or is it a site that we spend our time "postulating" about what may be.... The wheels thing is a different subject really, but when frustration ,happens , ....... __________________ One ferro 30 on the water, one steel 38 on the land, .........not a lot of time.....

14-07-2008, 05:03	#2
Wotname Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31' Posts: 677	Interesting post Mr Cooper. What struck me was the different definition we can give to a word; in this instance "opinion". I see you a using in a different way than me. When I post something around here and qualify the post as "opinion" (or IMO etc) I nearly aways mean that this is something that I have done, carried out, experienced etc and this is the result that occured for me in that particular instance HOWEVER I don't that the proof, data, knowledge or whatever to post it a proven FACT. Another way of saying how I have been using the word opinion is "this is a theory that agrees with the observed outcomes that I have EXPERIENCED however there may be other theories that also agree with the observed outcomes. Probably one of the theories are wrong" In the circumstances where my hard won knowledge tells me I know why something is a certain way and I can prove it by reference to other accepted sources, mathmatical analysis or logic etc, then I tend just to state the subject as a fact and not an opinion (and defend that "fact" until someone who is smarter proves me wrong). I don't like being wrong so I tend to be pretty sure I am right before sticking my neck and saying so. What I like about CF to date, is that there are some very knowledgeable (sp?) people here that keep people like me "honest". I can see you are referring to opinion as "some idea that sounds it might be right or has been deduced from reading, bar talk or what have to". Maybe I have been using the word incorrectly (IMO ). I will be looking forward to the responses to your post. __________________ All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Wotname; 14-07-2008 at 05:04. Reason: Spelling.

14-07-2008, 05:59	#4
cooper Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Back of the Dandenongs, Australia Posts: 909 Images: 6	Wot name, I am not sure if this is helpful or not.....I am saying "I" would like to hear from people who have actually "done it".... In my experience of life , they have said the least and made the most sense... __________________ One ferro 30 on the water, one steel 38 on the land, .........not a lot of time.....

14-07-2008, 06:20	#5
Ex-Calif Moderator Site Helper Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah! Posts: 2,762 Images: 4	No offence to Cooper but this has nothing to do with sailing and is likely to simply start a fist fight. It's the internet - If the mods choose to make a rule that states no opinions allowed then we should follow it. I don't think they will. Can we pretty please talk about something at least loosely related to sailing - Did anyone else but me sail this weekend??????????????? __________________ Dan Relax Lah! Changi Sailing Club

14-07-2008, 06:44	#6
Pblais Moderator Site Helper Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hayes, VA Boat: Gozzard 36 - Bright Eyes Posts: 4,417 Images: 7	Officially speaking we don't set limits on what persons can post about other than the topic needs to be about boating. That covers a wide range of topics. How those discussions are conducted are only governed by the current rules that basically insists people avoid arguments on line and use language appropriate to a broad family audience. We have no plans to change those fundamental requirements to any great extent. We may add or clarify the rules as required. Information can be gained from many ways and the exchange about ideas be they precise or imprecise and to any level of detail is left to the reader alone. Uninformed members are free to participate where they will. If you feel a post is not to your level of satisfaction you are entitled to move on to another thread or start a new one. Too often one thread starts and members continue to chase down a rat hole going no place. Such has been the primary problem with almost all "problem threads". The create new topic icon is available to all members. Should a thread become uninformative to any one then it may be time to start a new thread and try to redirect the discussion by restaing the question. We do not believe threads have required qualifications for participation other than being a registered member. If you start a thread you don't have the right to restrict posters with preconditions. We have the most success when topics are conducted in an open environment. It requires all members be more tolerant and maximizes everyones ability to participate. If anyone feels they require a special or exclusive forum they may be wise to find one through other sources. Voy.com will permit you to start your own discussion groups for free and make some of your own rules. We have no plans for anything like that now. Technology may allow us to do more member based options down the road. If we can provide more options so members can do more activities under their own control I think we will attempt to provide them. There are some new things in the works and announcements will provide details as they become available. __________________ Paul Blais s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36 37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W

14-07-2008, 05:06	#3
exfishnz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2008 Boat: Designing a global explorer (full keel & steel) Posts: 353	In regards to some people with real maritime experience not posting very much, today I spoke with a CF member who is very talented & experienced in his maritime field but apparently he gets members complaining to the mod's about him (for basically nothing) As a result he no longer contributes as much to this forum as he would like to. In regards to Wheels, I think there may be a number of members contemplating taking the same route.

14-07-2008, 06:57	#8
GordMay Administrator Site Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W Boat: C.L.O.D. (Cruiser Living On Dirt) Posts: 8,905 Images: 217	Opinions are a lot like wives (partners?). Notwithstanding that some are more presentable and/or useful than others; we seem to be most attached to our own. A few of us would be advised to more carefully consider our choice (of both). __________________ Gord May ~~_/)_~~ (Gord & Maggie - "Southbound") "If you didn't have time/$ to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"

14-07-2008, 07:17	#9
ssullivan Commercial Vendor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,533 Images: 1	He he he!! Gord's reply is a great one. Really, we can all complain that this board isn't perfect, but if you can direct me to one out there that is better.... (I don't think there are any. ) One thing I'm curious with, Cooper is what you are defining as "real situations" and people who are out there. I ask because I do feel that someone who may not be actively cruising, but does own a boat and has experience on it on the weekends could be a contributer that helps a lot, even if it's through reading knowledge. As an example, I'm not sure if Pblais has "cruised" far and wide, but the man knows his stuff and has made helpful posts time and time again on questions I've asked. He may be in VA and doing local sailing right now, but as far as boats go, he's probably ahead of many "cruisers" in knowledge. (Paul, had to use somebody as an example... sorry! Also,apologies if you have already cruised and returned... I just don't know that info. Your helpful autopilot posts had you fresh in my head) His posts are detailed, informative and thoughtful. On the other hand, mine probably need a lot more work, but I do only talk from real life experiences. Nothing is theory. It's all stuff I've done before, including the horrid political rat holes I tend to end up in. All in all, it's my opinion that you can't find a board with more knowledge on it. Sure we end up in some dark areas from time to time, but we all keep coming back... why? Where else can you get 20 qualified anddifferent opinions about a problem you face with your boat in 6 hours?

14-07-2008, 07:57	#10
imagine2frolic Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: N.E. Florida Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE Posts: 1,548 Images: 108	It's called brainstorming, and sharing. I like what I read here. I always alllow myself to reject somethings I read without being angry. Except for once when someone got a little personal with me calling me a liar in a sorry attempt to being polite about it. I gave him my 2cents, and went on to another thread. Sulli's right, where else can you get 20 different views on the same subject?

14-07-2008, 08:00	#11
imagine2frolic Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: N.E. Florida Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE Posts: 1,548 Images: 108	P.S., I also use actual events that have happened to me most of the time. Sometimes it is nothing but an opinion I give.........

14-07-2008, 08:26	#12
GordMay Administrator Site Administrator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W Boat: C.L.O.D. (Cruiser Living On Dirt) Posts: 8,905 Images: 217	Experience = What Theory = Why (and/or So What) Practice = Applied Theory Once again, I feel the need to reiterate that “theory” does not purport to replace “experience - it attempts to “explain” it; such that having experienced a singular event, we can extrapolate the specific lesson learned to the general pattern. In scientific reasoning, this specific to general pattern is often used with inductive reasoning, where facts or observations about a situation are evaluated to determine whether a generalization (which may be a theory, thesis, or conclusion) can be made. __________________ Gord May ~~_/)_~~ (Gord & Maggie - "Southbound") "If you didn't have time/$ to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"

14-07-2008, 08:56	#14
knottybuoyz Moderator Site Helper Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Canada Boat: Sunray Mirage 25' Posts: 1,760 Images: 85	It's always been my experience with "opinions" that everyone is entitled to one (or more) no matter how rediculous it is or they are! __________________ Yours Aye! Rick ~^~^~^^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~~^~^~~^~^~^^~~^~^ "Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief even denied to prayer." Mark Twain

14-07-2008, 08:58	#15
scallywag Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. Augustine, Fl Boat: Allied Princess, 36-Scallywag Posts: 421 Images: 2	Site Aministrators, Site Helpers, and Participants, Thankyou for all you do to make this board available. Opinions are perspectives. I know a number of you sail or power and a lot of you have experiences. As an educator, I like GordMay's "experience leads to opinion, I call this LEARNING". I am still learning and this site is very helpful. Thanks, John

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