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Old 05-02-2010, 21:52   #31
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Is that what happened...he bent down to do something?
So sad!
Trying to flip the switch to the second fuel tank in an unfamiliar craft...

the devil is in the details and it's ALL details, ain't it?
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Old 05-02-2010, 22:57   #32
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Stand corrected Henry VIII incorrect,Some ? BF also old Eng. rhyme.David was illegitimate half brother seldom mentioned,,,jest.marc PS will research source in future.Maybe also need grammar ck.lol
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Old 05-02-2010, 23:11   #33
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Trying to flip the switch to the second fuel tank in an unfamiliar craft...

the devil is in the details and it's ALL details, ain't it?
You bet.......so sad.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:41   #34
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Rules were made to be broken. When the rift of the Milky Way lines up with the Solar System on 12/21/2012. The Mother of all rules will be broken, and then again maybe not?..........i2f

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Old 06-02-2010, 07:15   #35
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He he, too funny and I can totally relate. These rules change from boat to boat and from water to land. Ya just gotta role with it... As a Nurse working in the OR rule #1 - Never never never say it is a quiet night, it will make you very unpopular when the trauma code inevitably goes off.
Apparently posting said rule on a forum is worse than saying it out loud..last night was the craziest night at my hospital. Between the emergencies everyone was shaking their heads asking if it was a full moon or something. So in consideration to my safety, I chose not to tell them that I had posted Rule #1 on a forum.

On topic -if you leave your hatch open while running to the marine store it will rain.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:12   #36
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Its OK to post them as long as you don't say the works out load or mouth the words while typing.
If you do then its a whole rigmarole of potions and sacrifices to get it behind you....generaly a big hassle all in all.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:26   #37
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Does the sacrifice involve RUM and a mixer, that always seems to at least appease me

P.
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Old 06-02-2010, 08:37   #38
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Does the sacrifice involve RUM and a mixer, that always seems to at least appease me

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Old 06-02-2010, 09:21   #39
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Budgeting Rule

You have all overlooked an inviolate rule. As soon as any one of 'marine', 'marinized', 'boat' or 'yacht' is included in a sentence as an adjective or adverb describing what you are looking for, then the cost of your purchase automatically at least doubles.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:29   #40
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Its almost never just one thing that happens. It is almost always the case that if someone had taken care of the first or second event, that the third or fourth event that lead to the disaster would never have occurred. Its as if when something goes wrong that this is your warning and quite possibly the last warning you are going to get.
Yes, and it is frequently not a matter of lacking knowledge, experience or skill. In fact, it is sometimes a direct result of the judgment born of knowledge, experience and skill. On this grim note, there is a great short story by Jack London:

To Build a Fire, by Jack London
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:39   #41
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We are coming up on our one year anniversary of living aboard and finishing our forth month out cruising the islands. I remember a friend asking me early on what it was like to live aboard. My reply was that it was no different than living in a house; example:
You're sitting in your backyard (cockpit) having a coldie you notice that the rain gutters (deck light/windvane, anything high up) need to be cleaned out. So you go to the garage and get the ladder (dig for the bosuns chair) and up the ladder you go to clean the gutters. Once up there you realize that the gutters are a little lose so you decide to reattach them, so down the ladder you go to get a hammer and some nails (need a different sized screw driver to get that deck light off). Once you're back up on the roof of the house getting the gutters reattached you notice that some of the roofing material needs to be replaced (oops that windvane just ain't turnin no more) so down the ladder you go and off to the store for some new roof tiles. Back up the ladder with the tar paper (new wind vane, etc...) now you have a new roof, but what is this, the chimney is showing some wear and tear, so out comes the mortar and a fine job you do to. Alas, the repairs are done and down the ladder you go, back into the garage goes the ladder and to your favorite lawn chair you retire for a coldie. As you sit admiring your handy work you say to yourself, gee those gutters sure could use a good cleaning.
Rules of the universe, yep there sure are a lot of different ones, for us we look at it from the point of view that at least we always have something to do.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:49   #42
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I don't want to knock a good thread off track, but this is an inaccurate description of the events that led to John's fatal accident. The low and slow part is correct, and it was in an aircraft that he had only recently purchased, but he didn't bend over to do something on the floor, resulting in a death spiral.

The Long-EZ, as you probably know, sits with its nose lowered to the ramp which can cause inaccurate readings on the fuel gauge. John had intended to increase his familiarity with his new aircraft, and called ahead to have personnel at the FBO prep the plane for him. When he arrived, he was informed all was OK - a small amount of fuel in one tank, and substantially more in the other.

He had enjoyed uneventful flying for about twenty minutes when the engine sputtered as the selected tank ran dry. Unfortunately, his new Long-EZ had an unconventional placement of the fuel selector - mounted on the bulkhead behind the pilot's head. John knew this, but had never had to actually reach the selector in a time-critical situation.

It was not possible to reach the selector without contorting the body to reach it. The Long-EZ was observed to yaw markedly right after the engine went silent. Investigators believe that, in an attempt to push against something to be able to reach the selector, John pushed one foot hard against one of the rudder pedals, though it's possible that he was pushing hard with both feet on the rudder pedals, and one slipped off.

Because he was only at about 500 feet above the water just off the Monterrey coastline when he suffered fuel starvation, John had very little time to switch fuel tanks. When he induced the hard yaw, he had no time (read: altitude) to recover. Sadly, had he not attempted to reach the fuel selector, he would have had a better chance at survival had he attempted an engine-out forced landing in the shallow water just offshore.

Not ideal, but much better than what actually happened.

Sorry for the interruption, folks.

TaoJones

Not to belabor the point but what ultimately caused John's unfortunate death was his inattention to flying the plane plus the fact that he did not do an adequate pre-flight. When piloting a plane, rule number one is that no matter what the distraction, fly the plane first. He should never have take off without adding more fuel. The technician who was on duty said John refused an offer of adding more fuel and that the engine sputtered and died after it was initially started up. He then stated that he thought that John switched fuel tanks, started up again and took off. Big mistake.

Lexlocal (a friend of mine) was referring to the thought process of complex activities, especially unfamiliar ones, and the 'crisis cascade' that can result result. It doesn't matter if the fuel switch was on the floor or in the back seat in John's model of experimental. The fact is that he had to take his attention off of flying the plane to do an unfamiliar, critical task that would not have been necessary if he had taken on fuel when it was offered to him.

Anyway, here is the official NTSB cause:

PROBABLE CAUSE
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause of this accident was the pilot's diversion of attention from the operation of the airplane and his inadvertent application of right rudder that resulted in the loss of airplane control while attempting to manipulate the fuel selector handle. Also, the Board determines that the pilot's inadequate preflight planning and preparations, specifically his failure to refuel the airplane, was causal. The Board determines that the builder's decision to locate the unmarked fuel selector handle in a hard-to-access position, unmarked fuel quantity sight gauges, inadequate transition training by the pilot, and his lack of total experience in this type of airplane were factors in this accident.


So as was stated in the post by DavidM about the sequence of events that leads to a disaster -- there was a sequence of events that lead to a disaster.

Relating it back to boating (so as not to completely hijack the thread) --

Always have enough fuel plus extra to get you where you want to go (especially for us because we have a stinkpot boat).

Do a check of all systems before embarking on a long voyage because one or more of them will probably break down.

Know how all systems work and how to do repairs of critical systems.

And remember --- Murphy laughs at us mere mortals. Something will ALWAYS go wrong, but hopefully nothing that leads to serious injury or loss of the boat.

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Old 06-02-2010, 10:37   #43
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. . . what ultimately caused John's unfortunate death was his inattention to flying the plane plus the fact that he did not do an adequate pre-flight. When piloting a plane, rule number one is that no matter what the distraction, fly the plane first.
I don't disagree with any of this, but I also don't think I stated otherwise. My observation that had John attempted to do an engine-out forced landing in the shallow water just offshore, he would have had a better chance of surviving is just another way of saying "first, don't stop flying the plane."

Could he still have been killed attempting a water landing in an unfamiliar aircraft. Of course. That's a rocky shoreline, and the closer one tries to set down to the shore, the more one can expect to encounter exposed rocks. He might well have survived the forced landing only to drown. But the point remains, had he continued to fly the aircraft he would have increased his chances of living through the accident, if only marginally.

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Old 06-02-2010, 11:31   #44
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I don't disagree with any of this, but I also don't think I stated otherwise. My observation that had John attempted to do an engine-out forced landing in the shallow water just offshore, he would have had a better chance of surviving is just another way of saying "first, don't stop flying the plane."

Could he still have been killed attempting a water landing in an unfamiliar aircraft. Of course. That's a rocky shoreline, and the closer one tries to set down to the shore, the more one can expect to encounter exposed rocks. He might well have survived the forced landing only to drown. But the point remains, had he continued to fly the aircraft he would have increased his chances of living through the accident, if only marginally.

TaoJones
Yes!! Absolutely agree with this. Which brings up another point both in piloting an airplane or piloting a boat -- always, always have a Plan B. And even a Plan C, D, etc. The mysterious rules the of Universe have a way of throwing curve balls when least expected.

Doesn't it always seem that the weather turns unexpectly worse just as you are about to enter an unfamiliar harbor? And that navigation marker isn't where it's supposed to be? Should you continue? Should you put Plan B in action? Of course, ideally a Plan B would have already been thought out, just in case.

And of course, those dang Rules of the Universe always seem to have us making really critical decisions without much time to think things through. Enter the dreaded "panic" mode. Thus, having Plan B as a quick alternative might just save the day.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:56   #45
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Back up plans

I was on a sinking yacht in the Atlantic. We exhausted many backups.
Plan A -electric bilge pumps (2), they went out in about 36ish hours of taking on water. Moved to plan B - manual bilge pumps, went out a day later. We then moved to plan C - manual labor bilge pumps (me with a bucket), this plan held up until we reached port.

Manual labor bilge pump recovery: plan A - kiss dry land. Then moved to plan B - a nice beautiful hot shower. We still nedded Plan C - a big juicy hamburger. And finally, when you haven't slept for four days plan D - three days of uninterupted sleep.

It is always good to have back up plans.

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