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Old 14-01-2007, 09:08   #61
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I'll agree that america does have its opportunities, and some of them even worthwhile depending on your intrests. But the worst part is what people expect you do to.

If you grow up in the middle class, you are expected to go to college. You are expected to get an office job of some sort and you are expected to work your butt off in that office to try to get out from under the debt you got from the house you were expected to buy, and the family you were expected to have.

The occasional person has the ability to see past this and do more than is expected and makes it big and they are generally looked up to because of this.

Again, the occasional person has the ability to see past this and decides that this is not what they want to do with their life. They'd rather enjoy a bit of free time that most others don't get at the expense of not having the latest ipod and tv set and game system. They are looked down upon as lazy.

I feel as if I fall into this third category. I originally looked into boat living because it seemed as if it might be a tad cheaper than living on land. As I did my research I discovered that it could offer so much more. The opportunities to see other cultures and to see nature as few people get to see it other than on their televisions.

I'm just disappointed that I am looked down upon for choosing a life like that.

I don't even know if this relates anymore, but it's just a rant and my intention is for it to relate, so I apologize if it doesn't.
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Old 14-01-2007, 09:46   #62
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Originally Posted by ssullivan

Joli: Nice flag. Any facts behind your post, or are you just repeating what you were told to?

.
Considering I worked a seven day swing for two years to save enough to pay for engineering college, considering I started my own business at 28, considering I travel to and deal with manufacturers worldwide I believe I have a right to say what I say based on personal experience. This is the US, we can say what we want. If you want more money, go make it. If you want to spend your time sailing the Caribbean on a Pearson 30, do it. But don't tell me there is no opportunity. Anyone can become rich, or educated, or live a full life they way they so choose in the US.

Tell that to the poor SOB in India.
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Old 14-01-2007, 09:55   #63
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Old 14-01-2007, 10:15   #64
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"China gets a bum rap in all this. It's not their fault. They are just contracted to make a product." Who's kidding who though? Friends of mine were in China recently, for a buck they could buy "Disney" DVD's of first quality, obviously counterfeit and sold globally--but locally made in China. There are profiteers all over the world, but the Chinese government seems to endorse and harbor some things to a degree the rest fo the world doesn't. Official Chinese (and Korean) government ISPs have become shelters for criminal-run spam organizations (soliciting identity theft, etc.) and, in violation of world standards, they disconnect their administrative contacts, so complaints are impossible. Hmmm...Official sanction of the activity? Who knows.
Then there's the "improvement" of Tibet. There may be some idealists in China, but there are an awful lot of outright thugs and criminals running a lot of the show, and if you contract out to a company to produce a product, odds are in two weeks all of your information and designs have been quietly pirated to some "cousin" making the same goods under his own name on the night shift in the same plant--tacitly condoned by the local government, which will find itself "unable" to prosecute anything.
There are just too many complaints about folks being screwed that way, business-to-business ripoffs, coming out of China, compared to anyplace else. No doubt part of the "chaos=opportunity" being the same glyph. And equally no doubt, some companies--mainly very large ones--have enough wallop and skill to do well despite this all.
But every culture, every society, has its own norms and standards, and the ones from China all too often also seem to include "Ah, wide eyes from the lower kingdom, let's screw 'em good." Hey, the place and treatment of the "kingdoms" was an official position for a long time. Not to mention, we're still the enemy who refuse to aid Communism. Old ways die hard.
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Old 14-01-2007, 10:51   #65
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Originally Posted by Joli
Considering I worked a seven day swing for two years to save enough to pay for engineering college, considering I started my own business at 28, considering I travel to and deal with manufacturers worldwide I believe I have a right to say what I say based on personal experience. This is the US, we can say what we want. If you want more money, go make it. If you want to spend your time sailing the Caribbean on a Pearson 30, do it. But don't tell me there is no opportunity. Anyone can become rich, or educated, or live a full life they way they so choose in the US.

Tell that to the poor SOB in India.
Poor SOB in India? Isn't that where they'll be sending engineering jobs soon so they can spend less money and still charge the same amount for the product? It happened to all of the manufacturers here and many software engineers in the past. What makes you think it won't happen to yours as well?
Ahhh.. capitalism at work.

Like you, I paid for my BS in Physics by working through all summer and winter breaks, started my own business at 27 and worked in international sales traveling the world before I started my business too. Acoustic has done some of this also. Big deal. None of that qualifies any of us to take part in the discussion. That only qualifies you in the magical world of "careers", which don't cut it in a simple political discussion. Here, it's about experience. (Not saying you don't have any, just saying that careers aren't what qualify you)

Anyone can say whatever they want, I won't argue that. That's why we're having a nice discussion on this thread. It's fun.

Anyone can become educated, but not anyone can become rich. Those who have a concience may have a hard time becoming rich. To become rich, you have to rip off and/or steal from others to get to that point unless you won the lottery or inherited the money, which probably came from your ancestor's ill-gotten gains. How do you think the USA got so wealthy to begin with? Hard work? Please! We ripped off everyone else (slaves, killed the Native Americans through "manifest destiny", controlled the world's resources and financial markets through military domination.. etc.. etc...) That's why we, as a country have so much while others have less. We straight up stole it. This is the same mentality you need to become rich. It's simple accounting/capitalism at its purest form: In order to become rich from nothing, you have to buy something cheap, then sell it to someone else for more than it's worth to make a profit. The very foundation of that transaction is greed and taking as much as you can from the customer for as little as you can get away with paying - like my Chinese meat grinder friend did to me. Pure capitalism.

And, straight out of Forbes magazine:

Forbes report: Billionaires’ wealth grew by 36 percent in last year

By Jamie Chapman
9 March 2004


Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author
While at least a billion people on the planet subsist on the equivalent of a dollar a day or less, the concentration of wealth among a handful of people at the top has set new records. In its current issue, Forbes magazine lists a record 587 individuals and family units worth $1 billion or more, an increase from 476 in 2003. The combined wealth of this year’s billionaires also reached record levels—a staggering $1.9 trillion, an increase of $500 billion in just one year, due largely to resurging stock prices over the last 12 months.
The wealth of these few hundred people exceeds the gross domestic product of the world’s 170 poorest countries combined, and equals nearly 4 percent of the annual production of the entire world.
Leading the pack, as he has the last 10 years, is Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates at $46.6 billion. His wealth is up 14.5 percent over last year, but still well off his 1999 peak of $90 billion, before the dot.com bubble burst. Besides his interest in Microsoft, Gates owns substantial pieces of Comcast and Cox cable companies, Canadian National Railway, and the waste disposal giant Republic Services.
Number two on the list is investor Warren Buffett, whose net worth is estimated at $42.9 billion, a whopping $12.4 billion increase in just one year. Through his investment vehicle Berkshire Hathaway, whose stock price has gone up 50 percent over the last year, Buffett owns Geico and General Re insurance companies, as well as sizeable stakes in Coca-Cola, American Express, Gillette, and Wells Fargo, among others.
Dropping down to number three at $23 billion is the retired German supermarket magnate Karl Albrecht, followed at $21.5 billion by Saudi Arabia’s crown prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud (who owns a $10 billion investment in Citigroup). Fifth is Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen at $21 billion. Rounding out the top 10 are the widow and each of the four children of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton, worth an estimated $20 billion apiece, based on the 38 percent stake they share in the discount retailer that has grown to be the world’s largest company in terms of sales.
Not surprisingly, New York City boasts the largest concentration of the mega-rich, with 31 billionaires residing in the city and nine more living nearby. The second-largest concentration is now found in Moscow, where eight new members joined the elite club this year, bringing the total there to 23. Hong Kong follows with 16, and San Francisco boasts 11. Paris, Los Angeles and Tokyo have 10 each. London trails with nine.
Nearly half of the world’s billionaires live in the United States. These 275 people have a combined net worth of $909 billion. Germany is second, with 42 billionaires worth $158 billion.
One of the new faces on the list is author J.K. Rowling, whose five Harry Potter novels have sold 250 million copies and spawned two successful movies. She has attracted considerable media attention for rising from welfare mother to billionaire.
Far from being proof that anyone can get ahead with a combination of talent, luck and hard work, Rowling’s story stands out as an exception that confirms the rule. The one or two others on the list who parlayed talent into a mega-fortune, such as Oprah Winfrey and Cirque du Soleil founder Guy Laliberté, built up huge business empires around their ability to entertain, and it was through their control of these entertainment conglomerates that they became rich.
While most of the billionaires are listed as “self-made,” as opposed to inheriting their wealth, what this signifies is their ruthless approach to exploiting their workers and wiping out the competition, as in the case of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton. In the case of the new Russian capitalists, it speaks of their willingness to contract out executions of their rivals as well as political opponents.
Many of the same faces show up on the list year in and year out, demonstrating the monopoly position that those who acquire great wealth enjoy. Some of these individuals deserve specific comment.
One of New York City’s wealthiest residents is its mayor, Michael Bloomberg, whose net worth of $4.9 billion makes him the world’s 85th-richest person. Another name of political note is Thomas Frist, Jr. and family, worth $1.7 billion. In 1968, Frist founded the Hospital Corporation of America, which he turned into the largest for-profit hospital chain in the country. His son William is the Republican majority leader of the US Senate. He played a key role in the passage of the recent Medicare bill, which will line his family’s pockets even more at the expense of taxpayers.
Besides the Saudi crown prince already mentioned, three other oil sheikhs are high on the list—the president of the United Arab Emirates at $20 billion, the sultan of Brunei at $14.3 billion, and the crown prince of Dubai at $10 billion. The other royal billionaire is Hans Adam II, the prince of Lichtenstein, worth $2.2 billion.
The personal fortune of Queen Elizabeth II of England is shown at $660 million, only because the royal family’s vast palaces and other properties are counted as owned by the British people.
Silvio Berlusconi, the prime minister of Italy, is worth $10 billion (number 30 on the list), while Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister of Thailand, and his family are worth $1.4 billion.
While the rich continue to accumulate wealth for themselves, millions upon millions of people around the world are trying to survive under conditions of unspeakable degradation. A 1998 United Nations report estimated that basic health and nutrional needs in all "developing" countries combined could be satisfied with an additional expenditure of $13 billion annually. Even taking inflation into account, this amount would represent less than one percent of the wealth of the world's billionaires.


So, anyone get get wealty, but what has to be done to get there is deplorable. We, as a country are wealthy for the same reasons the guys in the article are wealthy. Exploitation of others. It's the same thing you have to do on a smaller scale to "make it." Did you know that most people (over 50%) do not even qualify to purchase a home at the median price of a US home? Again, I say look at the numbers.


Damn... I thought I was done. Ok.. this time... no more posting here. Have fun with it, folks.
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Old 14-01-2007, 11:26   #66
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Hellosailor, yes and no on that one. The problem is numbers. How do you police 1.3 billion people. It doesn't sound that gi a number untill you put in a comparison. The USA has 300 million people right? China's 1.3 billion. That .3 is the entire population of the USA. Now the number looks big.
There is corruption from all countries. I have delt in the Chinese market and had no problems. I have dealt in the US market and got ripped off three times. I don't blame either country nor do I suggest China is better. But it certainly doesn't deserve the rap it gets today that it did probably deserve in yesteryear. authorities in China are trying to deal with counterfiting, but the numbers make it difficult. By the way, the common areas of spam on this board are from Europe.

Joli, you can becoem what you want in most countries today. Certainly there are many in huge poverty that make it impossible to survive let alone make an income. But I here the US has some in extreme poverty as well. And lets face it, the world we are in dictates that to make money, you first have to have money.
I could go on about US politics in other countries,( I bet a few others here are biting their tounges as well ;-) but that is over stepping the line. I think we need to be careful here guys, this is one of those threads I dread to see on a BB. It can all turn to custard real quick and we are dabbling in off topic waters. Please keep that in mind and thanks for the awesome self control displayed so far.

Gord, I loved that statement you made.
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Old 14-01-2007, 11:55   #67
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"How do you police 1.3 billion people." That's immaterial. How do we police 20 million people, in one US state? Or 300 million, in the country? One small precinct at a time, the same way they can and sometimes do in China. If the Chinese government can find ways to abort children (one per customer please) or sell them at great profit (Hello, Yankee! Wanna buy girlchild?) and conclude that killing dogs is easier than giving out rabies shots...they are indeed already proving that they can police their mass, when, if, and as they choose to do so. Which is how most other states do it--when, if, and as they choose.

"authorities in China are trying to deal with counterfiting, but the numbers make it difficult." Yeah, like the US tries to fight drugs. A dog an pony show that only the pols believe.

"By the way, the common areas of spam on this board are from Europe. "
Not surprising, but you can't judge the source of the spam by the ISP being used for it. Although our FBI claims there is a wide trade in organized crime from Russia and eastern europe, and of course since they at least share the roman alphabet and some cultural clues instead of writing in pictures...that's not surprising.

There's no denying that China is awakening to her potential power, the only question will be...will they continue fine traditions like removing organs from prisoners? That may only put them on equal footing with the fine nations in eastern europe that have also recently endorsed genocide, but it won't convince me that I really want to deal with them either. I just don't see any attraction, except the price--countered by risk.
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Old 14-01-2007, 13:02   #68
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Well funny enough it all looks good from where I am"Australia".It looks like we are the "lucky country" after all.With a $500.00 per week take home pay we can afford a house a car and also get to have fun as well.Now I'm not well off but it seems ya find it hard in the states to do that.We don't have kids and dont owe anybody except the house loan to which we pay $260.00 per f/night.When the utilitys and rates come in we pay them and do not struggle.We have two wages at about $1700.00 per F/night.I would be very interested to know how this stacks up against ,Lets say, the UK,USA,Can or anywhere else ya come from.Mudnut.
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Old 14-01-2007, 13:08   #69
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Studio or 1 bedroom apartment in San Jose Ca ranges from $1400-$2200per month. Standard loan payments on a $350000 home would be about $3000 per month. (Not counting for the interest only scams.) Average wage earners are getting between $15 and $20 per hr with $25 being the high end for blue collar employees. At $25 per hour, one income, that works out to about $3000 per month take home.
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Old 14-01-2007, 13:14   #70
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ssullivan - Interesting you should mention about Bill Gates and his fellow Billionaires. I recall seeing a TV program a few years back (A History of English Stately houses - or such like!), it must have been when Gates was at his peak of USD90Billion, cos' that figure sticks in my mind.

The point was made that the reason why England has (and originally had more) Stately homes was because these guys were seriously rich - the comparison was made - in today's money - with Bill Gates in that although he would of course have been "Up their somewhere", he would not have stood out because of the size of his fortune, indeed he wouldn't have been anywhere near the top.

Now, I can't provide a link to "prove" any of this, in any case it was just a TV program! - but it is probably near enough true as evidenced by the sheer number of Stately homes that were built - most of those still surviving are no longer in private ownership or are no longer solely family homes because of the costs involved.........................The point I am trying to make is that in any event the original families have long since lost these fortunes or vastly had them diminished (Wars, taxes, stupidity - but mainly down to loss of Empire.........it's easier to become rich when your business interests is backed by an Army which allows you to "write the rules" in your favour - this MO was not invented by the English and the Americans won't be the last to also use it - case example, India had a bigger economy than Britain, before we started looting it in the 18th and particularly the 19th centuries ).




This one is still privately owned - but opens to the Public and for weddings etc - I wonder if Bill Gates does the same??!!

My Point being that if the Internet had been going in the late 19th Century that:-

a) few on here would ever imagine that any of these rich people and families would ever lose their enormous power and influence and then fortunes. (it happens in that order) and that the "economy" that was based on having the dominant position would therefore also dissapear.........but history teaches that everything ends.

and;

B) Bill Gates would still be rich.


China? Never been there (yet), although met a few Chinese folk over the years and dealt with folk with direct experiance - but a brief look at their history tells me that the last 50 years have merely been "a blink of an eye" in their History of usually being a major power.

Once they get their sh#t togther and IMO they WILL do so, they will be the most formidable and succesful trading bloc / nation in the world. And they will back this up with military hardware.

My only slight concern is whether they will view us as THEIR "sweatshop labour" and seek to make this true. I am sure more experianced China travellers can expand further on their views on "us" - which to me I understand as being slighty to the right of the KKK and make the Japanese look like 1960's Hippies .

Of course IMO this will only be something for Grandchildren to worry about. With a bit of luck
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Old 14-01-2007, 13:37   #71
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Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Studio or 1 bedroom apartment in San Jose Ca ranges from $1400-$2200per month. Standard loan payments on a $350000 home would be about $3000 per month. (Not counting for the interest only scams.) Average wage earners are getting between $15 and $20 per hr with $25 being the high end for blue collar employees. At $25 per hour, one income, that works out to about $3000 per month take home.
Interesting Kai Nui,I'm at the low end of wages over here,$16.00 per hr,so it looks like anyone in the lower wage bracket over there dosen't stand much of a chance in getting ahead.I would imagine white collar workers could find it a walk in the park.Thanks Mudnut.P.S Anyone else have a comparrison.
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Old 14-01-2007, 14:02   #72
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Anyone else have a comparrison.
Note that I am not in England.......I beleive that the average wage here is now around 25k (USD48k?) - but that is a heavily distorted figure cos' our major industry is "offshore tax planning" (Think BVI / Cayman, except we are cleverer ) where the salaries distort the average. Probably a skilled tradesman would be somewhere approaching the average. We do howver rely on importing a lot of cheap labour, not all of whom stay long term - but enuf..........

Someone working on a Supermarket checkout, maybe 10k pa??

Can get a Studio Apartment for between 80 - 120k. 1 bed from 120k, 2 bed from 150k. A nice enough family sized 3 bed semi detached house would be around 350k upwards.

My understanding is that the average first family sized home is around 250k - as you can imagine at a very big multiplier of the average wage, this does create problems and tensions........

Me? Mind yer own business
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Old 14-01-2007, 15:28   #73
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David old jersey,thank you for that.Again it would appear that the lower wage earners might find it hard to aquire a house and pay the bills and have a good amount of fun at the same time.Mudnut.
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Old 14-01-2007, 16:17   #74
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To become rich, you have to rip off and/or steal from others to get to that point unless you won the lottery or inherited the money, which probably came from your ancestor's ill-gotten gains. How do you think the USA got so wealthy to begin with? Hard work? Please! We ripped off everyone else (slaves, killed the Native Americans through "manifest destiny", controlled the world's resources and financial markets through military domination.. etc.. etc...) That's why we, as a country have so much while others have less. We straight up stole it. This is the same mentality you need to become rich. It's simple accounting/capitalism at its purest form: In order to become rich from nothing, you have to buy something cheap, then sell it to someone else for more than it's worth to make a profit. The very foundation of that transaction is greed and taking as much as you can from the customer for as little as you can get away with paying - like my Chinese meat grinder friend did to me. Pure capitalism.
Wow! Who peed in your cornflakes? What are you so bitter about?

I'd say I have a whole lot more confidence in people then you do. Every day I see people building businesses, making money, getting ahead, raising familys, living rich full lives and being thankful they live in a country that allows them to succeed.

You seem highly educated. Why were you surprised that a cheap, low tech, Chinese meat grinder showed up when you bought a cheap, low tech, Chinese meat grinder? Who's greedy? Were you looking for something for nothing?
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Old 14-01-2007, 18:10   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Studio or 1 bedroom apartment in San Jose Ca ranges from $1400-$2200per month. Standard loan payments on a $350000 home would be about $3000 per month. (Not counting for the interest only scams.) Average wage earners are getting between $15 and $20 per hr with $25 being the high end for blue collar employees. At $25 per hour, one income, that works out to about $3000 per month take home.
Interesting thread,

On this Australian forum

Buying in the US - Somersoft Property Investment Forums

there is a fair bit of talk of investment property in the US with prices below $50,000 Aud, so about $40,000 US.

I realize they are fairly ordinary and need some work, but they are cheap.

Not knowing the US that well I would be interested to know what your thought's would be on these areas.

Could it be lack of motivation and a percieved concept of lack of worth on some peoples part ,stopping some people from getting ahead.?

Even in Australia there are plenty of people bleating that first homes are to expensive, yet they will only look at Mansion's, not shitter's to get them started.

Yet they all have the latest and greatest brand name everything and flash shiny car's pumping out Doof Doof music, and probably can't cook.

Our house is falling down around our ears, we have a 25 year old car, have never had a resort holiday, no plasma TV,all my clothes have epoxy on them, my only pair of shoes are "Deck Shoe's" with epoxy on them, I think you get the picture.

Now not trying to blow our own trumpet, though we are pretty chuffed,

We own our own home, and have control over 6 Investment properties , am in the process of building a 5 bedroom spec home for resale, and today will hopfully buy another house for demolition and build 2 new ones on the site.

All this while building a 50 foot cat, on my partner's one income of $60,000 AUD / $47,500 US.

I haven't had a real paying job in 15 year's and we are both under 43.

It's called "Delayed Gratification" and "Hard Work"



Dave
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