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Old 13-01-2007, 11:02   #16
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Exactly! That is what's really wrong. You could make your house yourself in much less than 8 years. This is where it fails so badly.


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Originally Posted by sluissa
I'm going to have to agree with sean. I could say more, but it's either already been said, or I don't know of any way to say it right. I'll just stick with, "Hear hear!"


Edit: one thing to add, it seems to me, even by yourself, and even cutting down each tree and cutting it up for lumber, and possibly even going as far as making your own nails, it would take ALOT less than 8 years to build your own house... especially if you went the easy way, and used cement instead of wood. in any case... very few houses would take 8 years to build under any circumstances
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Old 13-01-2007, 11:05   #17
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Thumbs down Upholding the Standard of Quality, the Pot and the Kettle

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Sean, shame on you for strong-arming a new poster. The tone of your response to Acoustic is condescending and beneath your position as a "mod" on this board. That's not the way to encourage new members to participate, a goal I often hear raised up as a desirable one around here.

If you're going to rant on an off-topic forum, (and mods should rant less than the rank-and-file; it sets a negative tone which carries the percieved weight of authority), at least be willing to bear someone else's opinion without having to scold him for having one.

Jeff

P.S.— anarchy, applied to economics, means every man for himself, with no recourse to protection of any kind. A completely unregulated market borders on anarchy, with only the pressures of supply/demand and seller self-interest (not alienating the customer base) as controls; not a very secure position for the buyer. Capitalism, at least the type we experience in the western world, with its built-in regulations of restraint, may not be perfect, but is a healthy step back from this chaos. You got what you paid for. Why be surprised that the fruit you buy in a dark alley turns out to tastes like lemons?

As has been pointed out already, you have recourse to punish the seller. Use them: that's the way the this system works. We sympathize with you, and want you to go poke your thumb in his eye.

UPDATE TO ACOUSTIC:
You tried to placate him, and you get slapped. Idealogues cannot be reasoned with.
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Old 13-01-2007, 11:07   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acoustic
Two wrongs don't make a right I have apologized and now you're on the attack.

I don't know how most people in Maine make it? The taxes up hear are ridiculous. My property taxes alone are 6k and this house did NOT cost 300K. I'm 38 and have worked very, very hard to get where I am. I've done it so others should be able to as well. I don't blame anyone but me for my mistakes and I've made them! The problem with this country is that everyones failure is someone elses problem and no one is willing ot accept responsibility..

Again I'm sorry for my above post I must have had a hair across my ass when I got out of bed....
Alright... water under the bridge.

Sorry as well. Maybe it's the dreary Northeast weather today got us both down? ha ha ha

I come from the same background as you and paid for UNH (in Durham) myself as well. You did well, I am assuming by crewing. That is one job that doesn't expose you to much in the way of the downfalls of punching the clock.

I wasn't trying to attack above, just looking at the numbers regarding your claims. The population can't choose which store they shop at or not to buy Chinese stuff from WalMart precisely because they don't have the extra dollars after all those expenses above to go anywhere but WalMart. They're stuck for life.

Anyway... I gotta stand on the street corner and hand out some whacko newpaper with my ideas. ha ha ha Scary part is, if you do the math, it only works for the well-to-do and not the majority.
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Old 13-01-2007, 11:16   #19
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True. I should have blissfully accepted the criticism. Sometimes, volunteers do make mistakes and react in a way that was not best. I am, afterall, a human not a computer.

I always listen to other opinions, when they are not directly attacking me personally. This one struck a chord, since it was a personal attack.

Thanks for the definition of Anarchy. I posted a reference to it because I didn't know what it meant. If you are going to go down THAT path.... then I'll just reply by saying one thing:

You wouldn't *be* buying all this crap in a good anarchy. You'd be making it yourself.

List of anarchist communities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, I was formulating the data for a Maine household when Acoustic replied. I had no visibility of his reply until after I had posted, thank you again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainJeff
Sean, shame on you for strong-arming a new poster. The tone of your response to Acoustic is condescending and beneath your position as a "mod" on this board. That's not the way to encourage new members to participate, a goal I often hear raised up as a desirable one around here.

If you're going to rant on an off-topic forum, (and mods should rant less than the rank-and-file; it sets a negative tone which carries the percieved weight of authority), at least be willing to bear someone else's opinion without having to scold him for having one.

Jeff

P.S.— anarchy, applied to economics, means every man for himself, with no recourse to protection of any kind. A completely unregulated market borders on anarchy, with only the pressures of supply/demand and seller self-interest (not alienating the customer base) as controls; not a very secure position for the buyer. Capitalism, at least the type we experience in the western world, with its built-in regulations of restraint, may not be perfect, but is a healthy step back from this chaos. You got what you paid for. Why be surprised that the fruit you buy in a dark alley turns out to tastes like lemons?

As has been pointed out already, you have recourse to punish the seller. Use them: that's the way the this system works. We sympathize with you, and want you to go poke your thumb in his eye.

UPDATE TO ACOUSTIC:
You tried to placate him, and you get slapped. Idealogues cannot be reasoned with.
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Old 13-01-2007, 11:50   #20
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Caaptian Jeff / Sean

CaptainJeff,

I'm a big boy no need to defend me but thank you anyway. I can admit when I'm worng and I made some assumptions in my post that I should not have made! If you are going to play in the sand box sometimes you get sand in your eyes.. Asside from the assumptions it was strictly an opinion post like Sean's. Where I went wrong was in making assumptions about Sean...


Sean,

Quote:
"if you do the math, it only works for the well-to-do and not the majority."

I truly believe it's all a state of mind. I never once thought I could not succeed! I was not however "well to do". I have failed before and got back on my feet and started from scratch. My first business failed due to my bad choice in a business partner and I also lost everything. He was not qualified and it was my oversight. I have never met anyone independantly successfull who had a victim mentality. The masses in this country are mostly victim mentality that's why it's relatively easy for the hard workers with a can do attitude to succeed. I'm no different from the masses except that for me failure is NOT an option and if I do fail it's MY fault not yours or the governments or anyone elses but mine..

I had the oportunity to work for very rich people crewing on yachts while paying for college. Not a single one had a "that's impossible can't be done attitude" it was the one thing that really stuck in my mind about the extremely rich and I truly beleive this is where success comes from. It's a mind over matter issue but we can of course agree to disagree on capitalism.... Again sorry fo the pit bull style attack!!
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Old 13-01-2007, 12:08   #21
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No problem, Acoustic. Sorry for the Doberman attack on my end.

I agree with your outlook. I have it as well. I feel it is up to the individual to suceed. (This is true in anarchy as well) While I have been dealt some bad cards, I'm surviving and kind of succeeding, in that I do better than the average guy from Maine, now that we did the math on him.

I suppose I just tend to think of others a lot. I think of the average person, rather than my own experience. This is what gets me going down this philosophical path. I picture that fictitious Maine family, stuck. I see all the people oppressed and exploied by the successful or well-to-do. I see they are caught in a trap that they don't understand, punching that clock each day only for all the money to go out on the red side of the balance sheet.

Of course, we on this forum are probably mostly made up of those "well to do" and I used to be one of them. So, natrually, it's hard to see what the average person, like our little Maine family is doing on a daily basis. Heck, even now, I'm not in the "have not's". I just sympathize with them.

In order for the ultra-rich megayacht owners to be that way, they have to have exploited someone somewhere along the line to make sick profits. That's capitalism. It's fueled by greed. I worked for them as well and learned that they can personally achieve great things, but they don't care who they step on in order to do it.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. I really am sick of our current situation. There just isn't anywhere else to go... but I'm working on that. Being a recluse on a boat helps. ha ha ha

Welcome to the forum. There's a baptism by fire for ya. ha ha No hard feelings. I should have been more relaxed as a moderator. I made a mistake in reacting strongly.
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Old 13-01-2007, 12:16   #22
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As the Swell Settles Down

Quote:
Thanks for the definition of Anarchy. I posted a reference to it because I didn't know what it meant. If you are going to go down THAT path.... then I'll just reply by saying one thing:
Sean, I have no idea what you're on about here, but it feels sarcastic.

I wasn't trying to lecture; just showing my cards by revealing what I believe it to mean.

If aNaRcHy means what you claim, i.e., each man is his own means of production, it was left behind in the Stone Age, or more accurately, the Industrial Revolution, and good riddance. I do think that you don't know what it truly means. Weave my own clothes (how long shall I go naked before I learn to do it adequately?) from a spinning wheel I build (wait: must build the tools first) after shearing my own sheep (whose defacation I've collected and spread about my turnip patch)? Completely exhausting and time-consuming. It's hard for me to imagine anyone truly desiring a state of affairs such as that, outside subscribers to Mother Earth magazine. I'm all for an element of self-reliance in our lives, and I find that vein to run deep in most cruisers/sailors I've met, but true anarchy is a frightening nightmare that ends when someone bashes in your skull in the middle of the night and steals all your possessions.

If that is not what you mean by the term, please clarify.

I just finished teaching Henry David Thoreau's Walden to my juniors; I think you would enjoy him immensely: builds his own house (er, shack), raises his own food, tries to take lessons from observing nature, philosophizes about simplifying his life (dumping materialism) and finding his true self, but is not above going into town on Friday night to hoist a beer (brewed by someone else, btw) and enjoy his friends' company. A great and thought-provoking read with an end-of-day glass of wine in the cockpit. Needless to say, my American teenagers were shocked (well, threatened, actually), and most rejected him as a nut. ("I couldn't live a day without my iPod and cell phone" was the typical attitude). At least you're trying to strike a balance, (remember, everyone: Sean's whole reason to buy this product was to process and preserve his own venison) and I admire that.

Question: I've heard you mention venison before. Where does it come from? You don't strike me as a hunter.

Fair Winds,
Jeff

P.S.— Acoustic, if I was defending anything, it was the right to expect civility on this board. Yeah, you're your own man.
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Old 13-01-2007, 12:54   #23
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Hi Jeff,

Your post above is quite accurate. I see very little value in our modern ways as opposed to the ways of a true anarchy, such as the one that existed in Ireland (note my name could be a clue... ha ha ha) until it was bumped by the British back in those days. As we discussed in this thread, it takes 8.5 years of solid, full time work (with 2 people!) for the average Mainiac (Maine resident) to work off the time and materials that go into paying for a house. If they quit their jobs and built it themselves, cutting down every tree and making every nail (as also was said in this post), they could build it in a fraction of the time. This is the point and this is how capitalism is failing this average Maine family. They are working longer and getting less for it than if they were just building all or many of their own things. This form of economy/govt is holding them down more than building and gathering all their own things would. Instead of working themselves to build a house, they work for someone else and allow that someone else to earn a percentage of their labor. That "someone else" is the employer, stockholders and IRS.

My definition of Anarchy is what you read in the Wikipedia link. It's not a personal definition, but the definition you'll find there. It's a form of civilizaiton that doesn't rely heavily on a government, taxes, or rules. It's a form of self governance by the people without a higher order telling the people what to do, or trapping them in a "system" such as capitalism, communism, or what have you.

You say that making your own clothing, food, shelter etc.... is completely exhausting and time consuming. How then, do you feel about the amount of labor peope do under capitalism? How many 60 hour weeks can you put in trying to get dollars (that keep dropping in value)? Isn't there a point where it is faster to just make the thing yourself, such as the example of making the home in Maine vs spending 8.5 years working 40-60hrs a week to try and pay for one that's been pre-made by someone else?

How many of us on this board are working right now instead of cruising? How many need "just another year", or "just another 5 years?" until they can set sail? I know I do. Yet, if I constructed my own boat out of the forest I could more quickly be off to sea. I actually know a guy who did just this.

No, I do not see much value in our modern ways. Almost none at all, actually. Maybe being able to learn is the only thing I see as an advantage. We have great resources for learning.

Walden is a great book. There are a lot of similarities between that whacko's outlook and my own whacko outlooks. His was a great experiement. I read that in Jr High myself, then again more recently. I would imagine most people think I'm crazy. That's ok. To each their own. I don't want to convert anyone, just pointing out some tidbits. I never quite understood why so many people just accept anything they were told or read without giving it a lot of critical analysis. In many ways, I thought exactly like the pro-capitalists out there in the past. I just kept on thinking and thinking until...POP! Madness. ha ha ha Or maybe it was clarity?

My way of thinking is certainly way outside of the box and/or planet. I'll be the first to admit it. We aren't as anti-social as I said though... I was just joking about myself. We go to the pub once in a while to see friends too.

To answer your quesiton regarding the venison:

I'm an aspiring hunter. I have been working on learning hunting with a shotgun, but also by trapping and other methods that are doable without reliance on purchasing things. For now, our venison comes from a local place that supplies restaurants. There isn't so much hunting you can do where I am at the very moment. I'm here to make some $$ to pay off this boat. Later, I hope to have it come from actual hunting, although deer might be a bit large or us, only being 2 people with a boat freezer. I am not interested in hunting for sport or thrill or anything. It's purely for food. Plus, you have to kill the animal very quickly (with no pain) for the meat to taste good. One of the sources of "gamey" tastes is the adrenaline the animal gets pumping when it's in danger.
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Old 13-01-2007, 12:55   #24
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Greatttttttt thread!!

Not a big one for "isms" or labels, but if I was pushed I would describe myself as a "Free Market Socialist" (I made this term up myself!)

Basically my view is that Capitalism IS the most practical and efficient (even if far from perfect) way of running an economy, but that this isn't an end in itself - Capitalism (like the Govt - LOL!!) SHOULD be the servant of the people, not the master - ONE of the reasons it should NEVER allowed to be unfettered. The other reason is that it will always implode due to short sighted thinking. Folk and Companies are permitted (and encouraged) to prosper because it provides an overall benefit to everyone - but that it must be controlled for the long term good of the Society (Nation) in question.

It wasn't that long ago (in some cases in living memory) that many of our ancestors were "Living in sh#t and were glad of it" - the thing annoys me so much about many folk who "have made it" under the present system (whether in the US, UK or other Western country) is that they somehow think that their success is only down to their hard work and brains...........whereas the reality is far more complex. Or that the state of affairs that ALLOWED them to prosper over the last 50 years (no matter how imperfect it was) is ordained to last and that it is impossible that in due course YOUR faimly won't AGAIN be "Living in sh#t and glad of it".

BTW, I have nothing against folk "living in sh#t", just the being "glad of it" part!!


PS I am also a Nationalist (as in believing in the Nation State always doing what is best for it's own people) - but for some reason this often doesn't sound "nice" when coupled with the word socialist .

I always like to think that my political views are quite balanced - half of them are to the right of Genghis Khan. and half to the left of Joseph Stalin.
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Old 13-01-2007, 13:17   #25
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Very nice, David. I think I'd share your balanced, moderate viewpoint had I grown up in the UK. Having been here in the States, I have had a bit of an overdose of pure, unfettered capitalism.
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Old 13-01-2007, 13:57   #26
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Not everyone can build a "house". Not everyone can afford to have a "house" built the same as another. Not everyone is wanting to keep the "house" as long as another. It maybe temporary shelter till they can afford to build the "house" of there dreams. Some times a cheap "house" will do the job, sometimes the need of an expensive well made "house" needs to be the initial purchase.
It varies for everyone. But all in all, something that sells cheap was mostly likely made to be cheap. It's not the fault of China. China make very high quality products as well. Many of the plants in China simply make to order. Someone, and that would most likely be "Mr 1st world rich person", see's an opportunity to sell a product in bulk, He approaches "Mr China We have the technology to build what you want" and says, build me 10,000 of these to this spec. Mr Chinese manufacturer say's no problem and shortly there after arrives a container with the 10,000 units built to spec. If Mr Rich did not specify it was to actually work, it maynot even work. You have to specify exactly the full details of what you want.
Now we come to the market and we have two choices of the product on the shelf. One is the genuine will work for 10yrs+ article and cost $10000.00 The other is the cheap knock off, will work for only a fracton of that time, maybe more and possibly even less. will tend to work no where as well, but does work. It only costs $1000.00. Now in comes Mr me, that has didly squat in his pocket. It would take 10yrs to save up to afford the $10,000.00 unit, but only a yr to save up for the $1000.00 unit.
What decision do I make????
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Old 13-01-2007, 14:03   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
Not everyone can build a "house". Not everyone can afford to have a "house" built the same as another. Not everyone is wanting to keep the "house" as long as another. It maybe temporary shelter till they can afford to build the "house" of there dreams. Some times a cheap "house" will do the job, sometimes the need of an expensive well made "house" needs to be the initial purchase.
It varies for everyone. But all in all, something that sells cheap was mostly likely made to be cheap. It's not the fault of China. China make very high quality products as well. Many of the plants in China simply make to order. Someone, and that would most likely be "Mr 1st world rich person", see's an opportunity to sell a product in bulk, He approaches "Mr China We have the technology to build what you want" and says, build me 10,000 of these to this spec. Mr Chinese manufacturer say's no problem and shortly there after arrives a container with the 10,000 units built to spec. If Mr Rich did not specify it was to actually work, it maynot even work. You have to specify exactly the full details of what you want.
Now we come to the market and we have two choices of the product on the shelf. One is the genuine will work for 10yrs+ article and cost $10000.00 The other is the cheap knock off, will work for only a fracton of that time, maybe more and possibly even less. will tend to work no where as well, but does work. It only costs $1000.00. Now in comes Mr me, that has didly squat in his pocket. It would take 10yrs to save up to afford the $10,000.00 unit, but only a yr to save up for the $1000.00 unit.
What decision do I make????
And the answer is: A question!

That question is, "Why don't you have enough funds in what's left of your year's salary to purchase something reliable?"

Where did it all go? Why wasn't there more money in your pocket to begin with, given that this gizmo costs $10,000 these days? Say this gizmo is, I don't know... a car. Shouldn't you be able to afford it in a sustainable society? Why were your parents and grandparents able to purchase these gizmos in the past with one income while they owned a house and sent 4 kids to college, when now you can't do the same?

I'm sure it's not because you are lazy and don't work as hard or smart. So what is the reason?
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Old 13-01-2007, 14:58   #28
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Guys...

I don't really know or understand why some of you think Americans are so destitute. If anything the problem is more the "keep up with the Jonses" than stuff not being affordable. I travel a lot for business and in 12 years I've been to over 30 countries. I can tell you, without question, that we Americans have the highest standard of living on the planet. I include our poor when I say this. There is affordable housing out there. Here in Maine we have plenty of "manufactured housing" or single / double wides. In fact right now there is a slew of them on the market because no one here in Maine really wants to live in one. People choose to be broke and in debt so when they pull up in front of Barbie and Kens house in their new Hummer everone thinks they are doing well. The real problem is in personal choice over personal responsibility. My wife and I choose to stay in our modest house rather than moving up to bigger one like many of our friends who are house poor..

America is a country about choice. It's your choice to buy the Hummer and wide screen tv instead of healthcare. It's your choice to live beyond your means instead of saving for college. People in Socialized and Communist countries don't have those choices because the government has made them for you. I for one prefer to think for myself instead of having some government hack deciding what I should eat for dinner or who my doctor should be. I have a mind of my own thank you and the government does not need to do my thinking for me.

One of my college room mates, Jesper is his name pronounced Yes-per, is from Denmark. His parents wanted him to go to school in the US because a US college education has a very high value, in the world wide business community, he could have gone to college in Denmark for next to nothing. He is the same age as me & considered very successfull by Danish standards yet lives in an 800sf condo he paid the equivalent of 700k US for. After taxes he takes home less than half of what I do in the US and we basically do very, very similar jobs in different countries.

His wife had breast cancer last year and guess what the Nationalized health care system in Denmark failed them! He wound up flying his wife to the US for her surgery and cancer treatment. He now has another $250k in debt to worry about but his wife is alive thanks to US doctors and choice. He did not have a choice about his wife cancer treatment in Denmark. Her choice there would have certainly meant death!

Capitalism & the US may be a rusty broken boat but it still has less leaks than any of the other boats (ie: countries).
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Old 13-01-2007, 15:30   #29
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I love talks like this.
Sean I see where you're coming from on a lot of things.
But I also think Acoustic has been hitting a lot of things on the head.

A lot of people walked into the the death trap.
People choose to punch that time clock every day.

cut up the credit card.
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Old 13-01-2007, 15:39   #30
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First off,I would never buy anything online especialy E-bay.Now that is said,from what I've seen on E-bay,there is a section of the add that lets you ask the seller Questions about the product he is selling.And for the people that have been ripped of more than a few times on E-bay,MY question is,"Why diddn't you learn the first time around?!"I pay cash for EVERYTHING and I like to see and feel the goods up front so there is no mistaking what it is I'm buying.Like wheels said,China make some good quallity stuff and also "Too spec stuff".I would wager a bet that Sean is more piss#d with himself than the poor little Chinaman or the rather dubiouse importer.As for meat grinders,I have one made in Switzerland,second hand and bought at a gararge sale for $3 Au.Guess where that is going when I finally buy my boat/home.Mudnut.
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