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Old 07-02-2011, 20:08   #61
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Or we could start a Thread asking if Cruisers are really just retarded closet Masochists....
Well there was that part in your definition of hedonist above that states they strive for pleasure without pain. I suppose that makes the likes of us who enjoy wearing the elements “masochists” of some sort or another? I am just not as sure about the retarred bit as I am sure it takes more planning and commonsense to face nature than it does to hide in a pleasure palace?

In passing, I have been reading an excellent book over the last few days called something like “Journeys in Small Boats”. It is interesting how the author picked the early cruisers who he thought had purer motives to write about. It is a great old classic read and was originally published as something like “They Go to Sea”.
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Old 07-02-2011, 20:15   #62
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While the "real truth" is not available to us, "Science" is the closest we will ever come, because it constantly examines and corrects itself. It weighs evidence, makes conclusions, and when new contradictory evidence comes in, Science, without apology or embarrassment, comes to another conclusion. This is what separates it from Myth!
Yours was a beautiful post, but I disagree with this part. I think there is a truth that we all "know" but cannot articulate. It's a feeling, more than a fact. It is usually found in quiet, natural places, which includes the company of people we care deeply about.

"God is love."

"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao."

John
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Old 07-02-2011, 20:41   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurferShane View Post
Well there was that part in your definition of hedonist above that states they strive for pleasure without pain. I suppose that makes the likes of us who enjoy wearing the elements “masochists” of some sort or another? I am just not as sure about the retarred bit as I am sure it takes more planning and commonsense to face nature than it does to hide in a pleasure palace?
Hence my original post about cruising in small boats being far from hedonistic.... and it was not my definition... its was a copy and paste courtesy of our 'GORD' aka 'CLOD'.... Cheers Gord...
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:05   #64
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I really don't think that the definitions of spirituality and religiousness are all that clear and/or separate.

The simple 'fact' is that religion in the US is defined by the IRS because they make the call on tax status. If that is challenged, the decision goes through the courts. The process is a bit crazy but you don't need a belief in a supreme power or other supernatural entity to be declared a religion. I don't really want to debate it, this is just something I have come across I thought I would share.

The events or places where I find spirituality are, to most somewhat, odd. A sailboat gurgling along happily (there I go anthropomorphizing) can put me into a state of contentment. Feeling the pull of the wind with the boat leaning and the sails pulling can give me a sense that there is a greater power (In which I don't believe) moving me on my destiny. Sitting in a quiet woods, or drifting down a lonely stream, listening to the birds, awakens my awareness to the beauty of the world. Bringing my scope down on the right spot and looking the deer in the eye brings me back to the sense of sacrifice and how grateful I am for my life and all that goes into supporting it.

In my experience, you do not need to believe in a supernatural power to have a spiritual experience. But it helps to be in touch with the powers within you.

I know and respect that others have different opinions, just reporting my experience.

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Old 08-02-2011, 06:16   #65
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I have been with, on, and around boats ever since I can remember (my parents claim that ever since I was 4 y.o.). Nearly 40 years by now. Grew up in a fishing village. Raced. Sailed RTW. Now live onboard.

Zero mataphysics.

I think there may seem to be some metawhatever in sailing when one looks from the shoreside. Out there on the waters and sailing it is all real thing (to me).

There is a lot of beauty (in the lookers eye ...) there is much sadness, some joy, so, in a word, emotion (sure, only if you are the emotional one).

But philosophy? Like what?

barnie
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:31   #66
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LOL.... I think the OP's checking if there's any potential Buddha's out here/there...
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:38   #67
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See also:

Ocean cruising: a lifestyle process ~ by Carolin Lusbya & Stephen Anderson
Ocean cruising - a lifestyle process - Leisure/Loisir

Blue Water Sailors in the Information Age ~ by James D. Dyer
http://honors.csustan.edu/journals/Margins/Dyer.pdf

Ocean cruising: A study of affirmative deviance ~ by Dr. James Macbeth, Phd
http://researchrepository.murdoch.ed.../2/01Front.pdf
http://researchrepository.murdoch.ed.../3/02Whole.pdf

Ocean cruising: a sailing subculture ~ by Jim Macbeth
Psychology of sailing

Community and quality of life - the case of ocean cruising ` by C.M. Lusby & S. Anderson
http://www.loisirquebec.com/doc/pdf/...olyn_Lusby.pdf

Voyages from the Centre to the Margins: An ethnography of long term ocean cruisers ~ by Gayle Jennings
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Old 08-02-2011, 13:26   #68
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How, in God's name, could a discussion of metaphysics NOT get religious?
It could, if those talking of gods read the definition of metaphysics before posting.

"...The word "metaphysics" derives from the Greek words μετά (metá ("beyond" or "after") and φυσικά (physiká) ("physics").[6] It was first used as the title for several of Aristotle's works, because they were usually anthologized after the works on physics in complete editions.

(...)

This was misread by Latin scholiasts, who thought it meant "the science of what is beyond the physical..."

Note - the word MISREAD.

Note - the fact that the 'Latin scholiasts' stands for a Middle Ages monk.

Today, however, we can choose between the view of the world of a 10th century monk and that of a 21 century university graduate. Alas, as one can see, a mixture of both is the most common fixture around.

;-)
b.
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Old 08-02-2011, 16:07   #69
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In my experience, you do not need to believe in a supernatural power to have a spiritual experience. But it helps to be in touch with the powers within you.
Both = the same. Alpha/omega. Inside/outside. Us/them.

Everything/nothing.

John
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Old 16-02-2011, 08:20   #70
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is their a spiritual aspect to moving around on a boat or is it just hedonistic materialism?

.
One of the many things I love about sailors is there sense of passion and romance when they look to the sea. Even if it is that guy on the old boat that just sits around and drinks beer all day, never taking his boat out, seemingly void of spiritual energy ( for lack of a better word). The sea always sparkles in his eyes. Beliefs come in many different forms, but the sailors "spark" is the same, I love that!

The op seems to be asking about the spiritual day to day, hope it is ok that I start with my first spiritual day..

My first glimpse of my spiritual path was at 19 sailing in the Atlantic. Sailing along, sun shining down on a rowdy deep blue ocean, the warm gusty wind kissing my face. I felt so small sailing on that big ocean. Small but not insignificant, actually the opposite. I also had this unshakable feeling that the world surrounding me was smiling. I leaned my head back and laughed up at the sky. I could feel this beautiful blue place laugh with me, feeling my joy. I knew with certainty that I was not alone, I also knew with the very same certainty that this "presence" wanted nothing but happiness and love for me. It felt like cage doors where thrown open and my real life began that day.

Whenever I am offshore (in good weather ) I feel God smile down on me, a great big horizon to horizon smile. When the weather is bad…

This is such a beautiful world, hope we all find joy in it.
Cheers,
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Old 16-02-2011, 08:43   #71
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Out there on the waters and sailing it is all real thing (to me). There is a lot of beauty (in the lookers eye ...) there is much sadness, some joy, so, in a word, emotion (sure, only if you are the emotional one).
Exactly - the real-ness of the entire universe focused upon that one place and that one moment where YOU know and feel and sense and experience everything at once. Precariously close to the definition of enlightenment, universal understanding. The "universe in a grain of sand", so to speak.

Barnie, I'm not trying to rope you into changing your view on the subject. I believe it's in the words, when we try to explain it, that we start to separate from the moment.

But man, I hear ya; been there.

John
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Old 16-02-2011, 09:27   #72
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Just put a deposit on a boat called "Moshka."

"Moksha is the release of one's self from the cycle of death and reincarnation, a spiritual transcendence.
Moshka, however, is the Russian word for a gnat or midge (small fly)."


It all fits.


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Old 16-02-2011, 09:57   #73
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Its also very close to the Portuguese word 'Mosca'... pronounced 'Moshka'.... meaning Bluebottle or fly...
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Old 16-02-2011, 13:17   #74
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Thanks Ocean Girl for sharing that with us; I am confident that many have had similar experiences/feelings and yet are unable to describe, or express them as articulately as you have.

I recall once reading a book called I and Thou, by a Hasidic scholar named Martin Buber. At the risk of butchering this lovely work with a Reader's Digest version derived from a spotty memory, I believe that his thoughts are relevant to this discussion.

In simple terms, Buber opined that in the context of our relationship with anyone or anything, the word 'I' would be more appropriately replaced by a word couplet:
'I - it', 'It - it', or 'I - you'. In his view these word-couplets not only describe, but circumscribe our sense of self and our relationship with the object of the sentence.

'I -it' describes the vast majority of the relationships in our lives. In these relationships there is a strict temporal sense - the relationship revolves largely around what the other person or thing can do for us (and take note, that even when dealing with loved ones, virtually all of our interactions involve the 'here and now').

An 'It - it' relationship describes those people who become so immersed in a subject or activity, that they themselves become an 'it' - a virtual object, or cog in a machine moving towards a specific objective (picture the research scientist who has virtually no personal life, cares not about his/her appearance, comfort, even health, literally sacrificing himself in the pursuit of his goal).

'I - you' relationships are exceedingly rare. They describe a relationship that is not contained by the here and now. There are absolutely no expectations, nor any practical or even romantic considerations. We experience the 'other' in the relationship as not really an equal (as that would require measuring each other up), but in an almost mystical way. As I recall, Buber gave an example of petting a cat on your lap and then getting lost in the feel of the fur, the warmth on your lap, the mellow vibration of the cat's purr, etc.... To Buber, (as near as I can now quote) "all of the 'I - you' relationships that we experience intersect in the eternal 'I - thou': God."

I don't know about connecting with God, but I do know that I have had a few rare moments in my life where my relationship with someone, or something has mirrored that which Buber describes: holding my late wife, comatose in my arms in the moments leading up to her death; and yes, with the sea (always while alone, at night and out of sight of land).

Brad
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Old 20-02-2011, 11:17   #75
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"And wasn't it a long way down?"

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.......and yes, with the sea (always while alone, at night and out of sight of land).

Brad

Beautiful posts Ocean Girl and Brad…..

My most favorite metaphysical moment:

Offshore alone on a night watch ….skirting along with a quarter moon listening to Leonard Cohen singing one of his most depressing songs.

Somehow it all fit together to inspire me to remember how blessed and temporary our lives can be.

Deep waters…Deep thoughts.

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