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Old 07-02-2011, 05:12   #31
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Anyone who calls low budget cruising 'Hedonistic' is talking outa their ass and has never done it.....
If I had wanted to be Hedonistic I'd have stuck to the 8 - 5 job which payed for the party drugs and booze, the flash wheels and the swinging lifestyle of non stop sex every w/end... obviously some of you guys led a deprived life ashore...
Friends who are still locked into the above continue to tell me what I'm missing out on and after 25yrs they still seem convinced its a temporary glitch in my head this 'Boating Life'...
and I'll soon walk away from it.
The simple fact is I'd rather sit on a beach/boat/field and chuckle at the antics of nature and its inhabitants... I prefer the world as it was and is rather than how my friends would prefer make it....
I'm becoming rather happy that I'm on the 'end run' and pity my 5yr old grandaughter for all the beauty that she'll never be able to see when she's older coz it won't be there... the destruction I've seen around the world in just my brief lifetime is unbelievable.... if someone had told me when I was 15 that all this would be gone in my life time I would never have believed them
The sad thing to me as I sail about is that humans seem incapable of survival without total destruction of the surrounding area... every time I return to some port, island or mountain range its a painful reminder that I belong to the most destructive species on the Planet
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:34   #32
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The sad thing to me as I sail about is that humans seem incapable of survival without total destruction of the surrounding area... every time I return to some port, island or mountain range its a painful reminder that I belong to the most destructive species on the Planet
But still the only species to invent a boat with a fridge...
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Old 07-02-2011, 05:38   #33
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For me sailing/cruising has always been about the spiritual experience and the potential to transcend the mundane. Obviously for some, maybe most, it is hedonistic materialism and those I pity. They remind me of a quote from one of Moitessier's books ..."to feast at the great table, you must have a great hunger and a willingness to go unfed. Only one in a million have both."

Another great quote by Moitessier that speaks to the spirituality of cruising is:

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present. In this limitless nation, this nation of wind, light, and peace, there is no other ruler besides the sea."

I don't know how you could put it any better if spirituality is what you are look for.
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:05   #34
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Anyone who calls low budget cruising 'Hedonistic' is talking outa their ass and has never done it ...
This discussion could benefit from an understanding of the terms being bandied about.
Take “hedonism”, for instance:
Let me google that for you
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:17   #35
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1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
2. Philosophy The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
3. Psychology The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

Exactly.... Drugs, Booze, sexmad women, fast cars....
I've managed to give up owning fast cars.....
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:29   #36
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Exactly.... Drugs, Booze, sexmad women, fast cars....
I've managed to give up owning fast cars.....
I've got no woman and am off me meds .............but I have a Moped and enjoy 1/2 a bottle of wine each week.

I might be living someone's dream - but it sure as **** ain't mine
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Old 07-02-2011, 06:30   #37
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Thanks for the denotation, Gord May! I was flirtling with the dark side when I earlier referenced the connotations that come with "hedonism", but it is also clearly the pursuit of happiness that we hold as a treasure. Some may consider this pursuit to be lounging with excess wealth and drugs or damaging the environment. My pursuit includes raising my anchor with my mecahnical windlass and working my ketch away from a anchorage under sail alone and spending many hours of labor in order to independently maintain the mechanics of my vessel. I recently left this anchorage that is fifteen miles south of South Beach, Miami.........

....we never go to places like South Beach!
So, yes, I am in pursuit of pleasure and this can be a spiritual endeavor that is supportive of our environment.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:11   #38
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Many of you will recognize Davy Crockett when I write, “Since you have chosen to elect a man with a timber toe to succeed me, you may all go to hell and I will go sailing;” and if you assert condenscendingly, "And he was martyred at the Alamo," then I will rebut by paraphrasing Chris Wall, "I'd rather be the skipper of a sail boat than the king of Tennessee." Carpe diem!
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:17   #39
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I have avoided the rat race as much as possible, sometimes with more success than others. I left home at 15, and for years lived in tents, or cabins without electricity, traveled by foot, kayak, and bicycle, and tried to avoid being "part of the problem". I have never succeeded, but do at least TRY to minimize the "degree" to which I am "part of the problem". To support my habit, I have done boatwork all of my life, (an environmentally dirty profession) . This extended my adventurous range and comfort. I have always built my own boats... as skill & tenacity was the form of wealth I was gifted with, rather than monetary wealth or a high paying career.

I have also had a lifetime fascination with science. Although I only got as far as one year of mechanical engineering in higher education, 90% of my education was self taught. (Auto didactic)

My spiritual life is what gives me comfort and hope, but all I come away with in the end, is living life as if: "What goes around, comes around". It really seems to be the case... I try to tread lightly on the planet, and live every aspect of my life consciously. Most of the things that we do, have long range consequences for us or someone else, and I just look for what they might be.

While the "real truth" is not available to us, "Science" is the closest we will ever come, because it constantly examines and corrects itself. It weighs evidence, makes conclusions, and when new contradictory evidence comes in, Science, without apology or embarrassment, comes to another conclusion. This is what separates it from Myth!

I TRY to have high hopes for the future of human kind, and try to do my part, however a lifetime of living close to the Earth leads me to conclusions along the lines of Boatman 61, (post 31). We are such high impact animals, have vastly over populated our species, and seem to be incapable of either seeing that reality or getting along. More than any other animal, we have left a self centered path of destruction, that will most likely result in our own extinction. We both destroy our environment, and displace the other life that has every bit as much right to be here as we do.

This is the preponderance of the evidence I have observed over the last 40 years of traveling, hiking, diving, sailing, and remembering what it used to look like!

It is probably too late, but I couldn't make it through the day believing that there is no hope, so I see the evidence, try to learn from it, adjust my own behavior, and not dwell on it beyond that.

Bless us all, equally... M.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:31   #40
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Actually the original post used the phrase "hedonistic materialism". So I think that is the term that should have been defined. I don't think the term hedonistic bird watching works very well to describe the sight of the eagle taking the fish from the osprey I described earlier. Seems a little "spin" is being applied by some.

Maybe a type of hedonism that drives pleasure from acquiring material things, I would think. Probably closer to the OP's intended meaning than recent posts.



For what it's worth, all this is off topic, my first post included. In post 18 atol stated,

"but that is by the by ....... im talking about chance,and near misses,good luck,call it what you will..... it exists.

I was going to ask for elaboration on that as well but it was late and I retired for the evening.
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Old 07-02-2011, 07:57   #41
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quote from Mark Johnson,

"While the "real truth" is not available to us, "Science" is the closest we will ever come, because it constantly examines and corrects itself. It weighs evidence, makes conclusions, and when new contradictory evidence comes in, Science, without apology or embarrassment, comes to another conclusion. This is what separates it from Myth!"

Good point, well taken, though I wouldn't necessarily agree the evolution of scientific knowledge is without apology or embarrassment. The debate about climate change could serve to indicate this.

Seems science and religion can be equally dug-in, to resist being dragged into the future.

Also, Einstein gives credit to "intuition" as a major factor in the pursuit of scientific knowledge.
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:01   #42
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I would like to hear Brent Swain weigh in on this topic.


Also I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Jerome FitzGerald and his book Sea Steading. He has a new blog on sustainability at:


Sensible Simplicity


The Wife and I have been 'discussing' retirement and cruising for a long time. Her idea is that her 'work' is important and that I should seek good 'work.' This has lead me to consider the definition of work. My conclusion is that, beyond the physical definition (effort to move stuff) work has no meaning, it is totally subjective. Was Gauguin 'working' when painting? Of course we now admire his 'work' but what if it wasn't so good? Or never became popular? Or was lost? His 'work' only became valuable after the fact and perhaps through luck. So was he working?


Then what of the concert soloist. We value his work when we hear it, but what of his practice sessions? Suppose he becomes a recluse? Is he then 'working' if the music is still the same but no one hears it?


Then there is this thread about a lost single hander that turned into a new thread about barefooting. There was some weird convergence for me there. I have at times in my life made my living with my very toes so I may be more aware of them than most. But living with shoes is a bit like living in bondage. Shoes are really hateful things. I never wear them unless I must.


So, taking this all together I ask.....Is it not a reasonable goal of life to simply live barefoot?
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Old 07-02-2011, 08:14   #43
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While the "real truth" is not available to us, "Science" is the closest we will ever come, because it constantly examines and corrects itself. It weighs evidence, makes conclusions, and when new contradictory evidence comes in, Science, without apology or embarrassment, comes to another conclusion. This is what separates it from Myth!

M.
For some of us, this is an untruth.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:20   #44
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a chain of events

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Actually the original post used the phrase "hedonistic materialism". So I think that is the term that should have been defined. I don't think the term hedonistic bird watching works very well to describe the sight of the eagle taking the fish from the osprey I described earlier. Seems a little "spin" is being applied by some.

Maybe a type of hedonism that drives pleasure from acquiring material things, I would think. Probably closer to the OP's intended meaning than recent posts.



For what it's worth, all this is off topic, my first post included. In post 18 atol stated,

"but that is by the by ....... im talking about chance,and near misses,good luck,call it what you will..... it exists.

I was going to ask for elaboration on that as well but it was late and I retired for the evening.
to elaborate it is probably best that i describe a chain of events that ultimately saved the lives of myself,my family,my crew and the crew of another yacht.

this goes back over a period of 8 years,all chance encounters but when put together describes the inter connectedness of every thing.

in 96 we were anchored off mombassa yacht club,in the bar i met a couple who were working in kenya,we got chatting as you do,
they mentioned they were looking at buying a yacht,by chance a crazy italian had arrived the day before who had mentioned he wanted to sell his yacht.
duly introduced the couple to the italian,we left mombassa for cyprus soon after.

a year later this couple turn up in cyprus on board the yacht bought from the italian,move forward in time to 2000,we have just returned from the caribean and are doing a haul out in cyprus,the couple from kenya are still there.
mentioned to john(owner of yacht from kenya),now a good friend,that i was looking for a spare dingy,just so happens that john had been given an inflatable a few weeks before for nothing,and since they had decided to sell their yacht i could have it for free.

move forward again to malaysia 2003,royal langkawi yacht club,happy hour at the bar,get chatting to an english couple,turns out they have just bought a yacht and want to go to thailand for xmas but don't have a dingy.

remembering i have a third dinghy given to me by john,that we never have used and wanting to help this novice,new to sailing couple,i gave it to them,so they could leave.

a few weeks later we head off island hopping on our way to phuket,
stopping in koh lanta for xmas day,coming into the anchorage,we see the english couple whom i gave the dinghy to waving wildly.
drop the hook and row over.

all is not happy on their little yacht,turns out prop shaft came undone and had hit the rudder,jamming both and bending the prop shaft,so they had spent the last week after getting the shaft back in trying to beat into 30 knot winds so they can haul out in phuket.
tell them not to worry,since we are going that way and would lend them my wife and some crew to help them sail,and tow them if nessacary.

in the mean time invite the aboard for xmas dinner,before going to bed we decide it would be best if we left early,or by 9 am at least as quite a long sail to koh phi phi the next day.

we duly left by 9.30,just coming up the coast when we are about 2miles off shore the sunami struck just after 10am.

if it hadn't been for this chain of events,my wife and kids and some of the crew would definitely have been on the beach......................
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:41   #45
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Regarding my statement that "Science is seeking the truth, and self correcting"... The scientist that do not stand to loose jobs or funding, depending on their findings, like the accredited ones that have studied climate change, fall into that category. They really are seeking the truth, even if it proves themselves to be previously wrong. THIS is how they become well known, and the truth is their ultimate incentive. This is what makes them tick... FINDING THE TRUTH...

(A good example is that ASTRONOMERS recently declared themselves previously wrong for decades, and Pluto is NOT a planet)! The "seeking of the truth" is their motivator, not money, or "saving face".

With climate change, where there are "na sayers"... The individual scientist that were funded by say... EXXON, or had funding from a biased source, do not fall into the category that I was referring to. And their results are to be ignored. Almost 100%, in that group of scientist, are neither accredited or published. They were not even AT these world gatherings of the most knowledgeable scientist in the field, so never compared their data.

There was a debate about "Climate Change" over 15 ago, between the world's leading scientist in the field. It has been over for many years. 99% of the unbiased, accredited & published scientist in the field, who have compiled their data and compared it to the data compiled by similar accredited and published scientist, from all over the world, have come to the same conclusion. (What we as individuals have observed, or even one country has observed, is irrelevant.) It is worldwide...

By using ice core samples taken from Antarctica for example, and going back in time millions of years, it is clear that the carbon levels have gone up and down parallel to, but before, the average ocean temperature, (=the Earth's temperature). It is also clear that natural events in the past, have been responsible for many climate changes. These changes were either over tens of thousands of years, in cycles, or following some worldwide event. The carbon rise in the atmosphere in the last 100 years, is to fast to be a "cycle", and in the absence of a "worldwide event" to explain it, and the presence of MASSIVE human use of fossil fuels in the last 100 years, the evidence is clear. It has been totally accepted among the educated people of the world, as sufficiently proven to be acted upon immediately, for over 10 years. Certainly proven right up there with evolution. The "debate" over this, is an American phenomenon for the most part. (A country in which, embarassingly... 40% of the people do not believe in evolution either).

Primarily in the US, It has been distorted and politicized, largely because of Oil industry lobbyist, money, power, and the natural human tendency to believe that which will require the least amount of sacrifice on our part.

What makes me fear that it is too late and a moot point, is that Antarctica's ice HAS melted before. With ice core samples, the atmospheric CO2 at the time, that preceded these events has been measured. Our current level of CO2 is already HIGHER than that which has caused massive, rapid, worldwide ocean rise in the past!

Were talking about a large portion of the planet's landmass disappearing, millions of displaced people, causing mass migrations. This will likely lead to world wide wars over energy, territory, and most importantly... fresh water.

There IS a debate still raging, among even the world's reputable scientist, however. It is a different one from: "Is it real"? and "Did mankind cause it"? Those are already accepted as facts...

The real debate is: What is the time line? How bad will it get? Can Greenland's ice sheet rapidly slide into the sea? What other weather events will be caused? How can we deal with the rapid decline in the worlds ground water? In other words... What can we do about it?

We can bury our heads in the sand, or we can do what we can. The only portion of any problem in life, that we have control over, is the portion that we caused. I for one am trying to make a difference.

Like I said earlier, it is probably too little too late, and largely symbolic, but it helps me get through the day.

I don't doubt that their are many who disagree with me, we all have our opinions. This is no place for debate on the issue, however. I was simply answering the question about "the spiritual aspect of cruising" in the best way I know how, and I can think of nothing more to add.

Once again... Bless us all, equally, Mark
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