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Old 13-10-2010, 08:14   #496
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Those were two great posts; the video and the letter. UCSB was my old stomping ground, so the letter brought back some memories. Thats funny how the whole climate change issue was causing problems in the community of physicists. I remember back around 1996 or so, this BBC team was in the biology department trying to get some sound bites for their TV special on global warming. They were harrassing this one professor and his graduate students and trying to get them to say something damning about CO2 and coral reefs, of which this particular lab was specialized in. It almost erupted into a fist fight. The lab was of the opinion that there just wasn't enough quality scientific data to prove anything yet, and the BBC crew wasn't having any of it. It was ugly.

I keep trying to tell people that CO2 is a naturally occuring tasteless, colorless, odorless, and virtually non-toxic gas which we need in our atmosphere. But people have become so propagandized by the nonsense in the media that everyone thinks its some kind of evil, deadly man-made gas that is destroying life on earth. Without CO2, green plants could not produce sugars and survive. Photosynthesis would be impossible. Most life on earth would be doomed. We don't need to scrub the atmosphere of CO2. In fact, there were times in past geological history where CO2 was measurable in percentage points and not parts per million. Most of the atmospheric CO2 has been buried into the crust of the earth due to fixation by plants and animals. Oil, coal, dolomite, coral reefs, and other deposits of carbon were at one time, atmospheric CO2 molecules.
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Old 13-10-2010, 08:18   #497
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... the "bummer" about growing old, you remember how things used to be, especially your distaff's mammilla.
Hmmmm ...
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Old 13-10-2010, 16:53   #498
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Several great posts.

I just cannot agree to the "reasonable care" side because I see too much "unreasonable science"

As I have said before, I believe pollution and overpopulation as a much greater threat to our way of life.

I also stand by my "deer and corn field" and "nature will take care of it" examples/arguments.
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Old 13-10-2010, 17:32   #499
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Several great posts.

I just cannot agree to the "reasonable care" side because I see too much "unreasonable science"

As I have said before, I believe pollution and overpopulation as a much greater threat to our way of life.

I also stand by my "deer and corn field" and "nature will take care of it" examples/arguments.
So I guess that you means you subscribe to the "proof beyond a shadow of doubt" camp?

Just out of curiosity, doesn't it make you wonder where at the anti-global warming scientist get their dough from? And why 'their' science is so much better than the other side?

It's not like the oil or coal industry have any interest in the argument, ya think?


Look, I think that in some measure we really do agree on the most fundamental issue. Over population, and humanities inability to do anything about it, is the core of our undoing. Global Warming, pollution, etc. is just the effect of the over population.

There is no doubt that Earth will create a die-off, the only question is if you think humanity can do anything about it collectively or if we are simply left to survive as individuals, family units, or small communities.

Not in our life time, but soon enough.
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Old 13-10-2010, 18:09   #500
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So I guess that you means you subscribe to the "proof beyond a shadow of doubt" camp?
I really think there is a lot of grey area between "beyond a shadow of a doubt" and "reasonable care" I am in the grey because of the aforementioned "unreasonable science.

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Just out of curiosity, doesn't it make you wonder where at the anti-global warming scientist get their dough from? And why 'their' science is so much better than the other side?
It seems to me that both sides are to be found guilty of where they get their money from.

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It's not like the oil or coal industry have any interest in the argument, ya think?
Exxon is spending millions on some guys algae growing experiments. Hmm. Should they not be trying to disprove his stuff? Hmm. Maybe that is what they plan. Hmmm. More intrigue?

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Look, I think that in some measure we really do agree on the most fundamental issue. Over population, and humanities inability to do anything about it, is the core of our undoing. Global Warming, pollution, etc. is just the effect of the over population.
That is about all we don't agree on. I don't think the population or their waste is influencing global warming. If any at all I would admit to a very small percentage which is inconsequential in the scheme of things. IMO of course.

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There is no doubt that Earth will create a die-off, the only question is if you think humanity can do anything about it collectively or if we are simply left to survive as individuals, family units, or small communities.
I don't know how it will play out but I have no faith in "us" doing anything collectively. We are so smart (we think) an yet cannot agree (or get along) in even the simplest of ways. I all history Man's "result" is to conquer, rule, rape (assimilate) other groups whatever the group's reasoning at the time.

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Not in our life time, but soon enough.
Maybe in our lifetime. I see things accelerating rapidly. Certainly my childrens which is why long before the first one I was adamant about not having any at all. That though is another long "unnacptable" discussion that won't take place here.
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Old 13-10-2010, 18:30   #501
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Look, I think that in some measure we really do agree on the most fundamental issue. Over population, and humanities inability to do anything about it, is the core of our undoing. Global Warming, pollution, etc. is just the effect of the over population.
That is about all we don't agree on. I don't think the population or their waste is influencing global warming. If any at all I would admit to a very small percentage which is inconsequential in the scheme of things. IMO of course.
It is truly interesting how this discussion is turning.

Out of curiosity.........if global warming is NOT your concern then what effect of over population do you think will be our undoing? If that is what you meant?
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Old 13-10-2010, 19:40   #502
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It is truly interesting how this discussion is turning.

Out of curiosity.........if global warming is NOT your concern then what effect of over population do you think will be our undoing? If that is what you meant?
Can't say for sure but food production and water supply are the basics that are tenuous even today.

A "super bug" could do some damage.

Could be that technology will out pace our growing needs though. Fusion? Algae chips?

We don't know. We dream. Then as a collective we achieve those dreams - flight, medicines, wrist radios.

PS - there is one question I ask every so often. What is the single "invention" that has had the most profound effect in altering basic "Darwin Theory"?
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Old 13-10-2010, 22:18   #503
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I'm voting for global cooling.
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Old 13-10-2010, 22:32   #504
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Great post on "only 10 years of oil left".

I was saying the very same thing just the other day. It's a load of bull designed to make everyone think they want and/or need it. - marketing strategy of the highest caliber for the very worst, (and abundant), of products.

Most of us frequenting these furums are old enough to remember when the sky above was blue instead of orange and soot-brown with an oily sheen.

The problem with oil, from a marketing and environmental standpoint alike has always been how to get rid of it once you find it. Hence the reverse-marketing strategy of "limited stock".
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Old 14-10-2010, 05:59   #505
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As I have said before, I believe pollution and overpopulation as a much greater threat to our way of life.
I feel that overpopulation and pollution are a cause of our way of life. The biggest threat to our way of life is our way life.
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:02   #506
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Just out of curiosity, doesn't it make you wonder where at the anti-global warming scientist get their dough from?
Some of them are "propellor heads" appalled at the dreadful misuse and interpretation of data, some are bitching because they want the money in their programmes and some are probably paid by oil, gas, etc.

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And why 'their' science is so much better than the other side?
That's a more complicated question than it seems. Some have their own fish to fry, others actually do worry about about the mis-representation of the process and data. Remember, scientists are basically nerds & geeks and process is terribly important to that mindset. I understand this because I am a geek myself.

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It's not like the oil or coal industry have any interest in the argument, ya think?
Of course they do and they live here too. They deserve a voice just like anyone else.


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Over population, and humanities inability to do anything about it
Here is where I disagree with you. The rate of increase of population is already showing signs of a slowdown. In the 1960s the human population growth rate was over 2%, now it is down to 1% File:World population increase history.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and if we can get it to go negative - ie a shrinking population - then we will be going in the right direction. More importantly, the population is already declining in the resource-consuming western countries and in the more rural countries more people are moving to towns which tend to reduce family size, especially if the woman gets an education and a career.

If you want to reduce the human population over the next 100 years then educate women across the world and get them into jobs.
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:31   #507
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Can't say for sure but food production and water supply are the basics that are tenuous even today.

A "super bug" could do some damage.

Could be that technology will out pace our growing needs though. Fusion? Algae chips?

We don't know. We dream. Then as a collective we achieve those dreams - flight, medicines, wrist radios.

PS - there is one question I ask every so often. What is the single "invention" that has had the most profound effect in altering basic "Darwin Theory"?
OK, we really do think very much alike. I believe in human induced global warming and that it may kill our species. But, other issues, such as you mentioned, may likely kill us first. And of course, some issues are inter-related. No matter, our effectual world view is similar.

Sometimes it is important to look at the confluence of ideas instead of focusing on the differences.
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:36   #508
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Originally Posted by hpeer
Over population, and humanities inability to do anything about it


Here is where I disagree with you. The rate of increase of population is already showing signs of a slowdown. In the 1960s the human population growth rate was over 2%, now it is down to 1% File:World population increase history.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and if we can get it to go negative - ie a shrinking population - then we will be going in the right direction. More importantly, the population is already declining in the resource-consuming western countries and in the more rural countries more people are moving to towns which tend to reduce family size, especially if the woman gets an education and a career.

If you want to reduce the human population over the next 100 years then educate women across the world and get them into jobs.
The world is already over populated, depending upon how you figure our carrying capacity far less than what we have. Some think that Earth's carrying capacity could be as low as 500 million given the environmental damage, but that it may go up again to 1 or 2 billion. Obviously others think differently.

So, if that is correct, then it is too late, some catastrophic event(s) will intervene first.
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:37   #509
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Great post on "only 10 years of oil left".

I was saying the very same thing just the other day. It's a load of bull designed to make everyone think they want and/or need it. - marketing strategy of the highest caliber for the very worst, (and abundant), of products.

Most of us frequenting these furums are old enough to remember when the sky above was blue instead of orange and soot-brown with an oily sheen.

The problem with oil, from a marketing and environmental standpoint alike has always been how to get rid of it once you find it. Hence the reverse-marketing strategy of "limited stock".
Sooooooooooooooooooo you subscribe to the idea that oil is a renewable resource?

If not then when do you think it will run out?
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Old 14-10-2010, 06:56   #510
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The world is already over populated, depending upon how you figure our carrying capacity far less than what we have. Some think that Earth's carrying capacity could be as low as 500 million given the environmental damage, but that it may go up again to 1 or 2 billion. Obviously others think differently.

So, if that is correct, then it is too late, some catastrophic event(s) will intervene first.
Let's get the human population into some sort of perspective here. The UK (where I live) is 243,000 km2 in area. There are 7 billion people on the planet. That means that you could put the entire human population of the world on the UK and give every single one of them a square 6 metres on a side. Basically a small house each.

Seven billion is too many people, but we are very, very spread out. The number of people is not the problem, it is the resources they consume. If we could get the population back to where it was in 1950 - about 2.5 billions then things would be a lot better. We simply need to stop breeding for a generation. You might find these UN estimates of future population interesting. The most likely estimate shows stabilisation at 9 billion,, but a decrease back to 5.5 billion is not ruled out.
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