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Old 02-10-2010, 16:15   #406
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. . .Can both camps be right and wrong in their agenda?
Simply put when dealing with data and statistics, both camps CAN be right if they choose the slice/range of time/history that fits their agenda - and - they can be wrong if they choose a different slice/range of time/history. That is what is so frustrating about many different contentious subjects - one of which is plankton die-off and/or AGW/ACC. What's that old saw - "can't see the forest for the trees."
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Old 02-10-2010, 17:21   #407
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.......
I'm not learning much here, because I have to wade through so much garbage before I find a nugget of truth. I have learned some things, though. And I thank you all for that. All of you.

I'm not mad, just tired of the futility.

-dan
Agreed. I have been down this path other places before. There are a few who just do not and never will see beyond their own desires.

There is nothing you can do about that.

I have come to the conclusion, stated above that, the greatest threat to humanity is humanity. Our inability to deal rationally. We will be our own undoing.

The only hopeful path I can see it to try to make things better for my immediate family so that they can carry on, and part of that is modeling how to enjoy life. Dad did that for me and I wish to do that for my kids.

Also, I note the large number of lurkers vs. posters. Clearly there are many who read these threads who do not participate. The ebb and flow of these conversations is not unnoticed.
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Old 02-10-2010, 18:37   #408
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Ive tried this before were I better with words maybe it would convey. I run an 8 acre campus with a budget. In the past 3 years we reduced our electrical use by 30%. We budget about $250,000 dollars for electrical utilities. I think that's near 75,000 dollars in savings per year. Thats a hell of a return we spent about $150,000 on motion sensors upgrading hvac controls replacing lighting with the most efficient bang for the buck stuff. Take the standard 32 watt fluorescent and replace it with a 4100K 25 watt bulb. Very cheap money that's a 24% reduction on your lighting load. Lets say 30% of your use is lighting thats $18,000 return by replacing a $4 fitting.whether your a green guy or doubter this is good managment of our and your resources. The other more costly but still great best next thing is vfd drives. Better managment with controls and cutting at low lying fruit can be significant.
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:04   #409
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If you took all the worlds energy and spread it around evenly we would be living at approximately the level of Guatemala. Who in the US or Western Europe is going to voluntarily do that. And Guatemalan's don't have the burden of needing heat. Living in a temperate climate is a luxury. 'Betcha never thought of that.

Just getting to energy EQUITY would do that. Then we need to reduce our energy use very substantially over that in order to create a meaningful reduction in emissions.

Ain't never gonna happen.
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:17   #410
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why won't it happen. If you can invest $!50,000 and get 75,000 in returns you can bet it will happen. I know a family that put solar panels all over their house. Out of pocket its $9000 in 10 years they wont have an electricity bill. My boat is 85% solar. Im typing this without using the grid. It can happen
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:25   #411
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Not another IPCC-gate?
Fitting with this is the trend of the last few decades where most of the world warmed, but Antarctica cooled and its sea ice increased. And as it happens, just today comes word of another cringeworthy error in AR4: The report whitewashes a steady growth in Antarctic sea ice, and underestimates it by 50%. (When the facts don’t fit your theory, change the facts…)
Another reason why the IPCC to me cannot be trusted.

What bothers me is that politicians and the EPA listen to them to create policies that will further control me. I don't need that.
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:29   #412
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Agreed. I have been down this path other places before. There are a few who just do not and never will see beyond their own desires.

There is nothing you can do about that.

I have come to the conclusion, stated above that, the greatest threat to humanity is humanity. Our inability to deal rationally. We will be our own undoing.

The only hopeful path I can see it to try to make things better for my immediate family so that they can carry on, and part of that is modeling how to enjoy life. Dad did that for me and I wish to do that for my kids.

Also, I note the large number of lurkers vs. posters. Clearly there are many who read these threads who do not participate. The ebb and flow of these conversations is not unnoticed.

Funny, that is how I feel.

I also agree on the greatest threat.

Same with my family except my dad didn't do diddly.

Hilarious.

Nature taking it's course.........
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:33   #413
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why won't it happen. If you can invest $!50,000 and get 75,000 in returns you can bet it will happen. I know a family that put solar panels all over their house. Out of pocket its $9000 in 10 years they wont have an electricity bill. My boat is 85% solar. Im typing this without using the grid. It can happen

I'm all for that kind of stuff.

Not so much the forced wealth distribution though.

But if everybody turned off their a/c on the same day I would play. Who is going first?
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:33   #414
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why won't it happen. If you can invest $!50,000 and get 75,000 in returns you can bet it will happen. I know a family that put solar panels all over their house. Out of pocket its $9000 in 10 years they wont have an electricity bill. My boat is 85% solar. Im typing this without using the grid. It can happen
Sabray,

Good for you, seriously. You are well on your way and ahead of me.

My point is not that it is impossible (it may be but that's another argument) it is that there are far too few like you.

I agree that it all makes complete sense, GW or not, to conserve energy.

Despite all the reasons to do it we do NOT do it. That is the problem.

Don't believe me? Ask Jimmy Carter.
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:35   #415
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I'm all for that kind of stuff.

Not so much the forced wealth distribution though.

But if everybody turned off their a/c on the same day I would play. Who is going first?
Me, I live in Philly and don't have AC. Don't have TV either.

And it sounds like Sabray is ahead of me.

So, come on, your next. Ante up!
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:38   #416
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The hope is that you don't turn off the AC you get to live just like you do now. We just put efforts into things that have fiscal and environmental payback. Of course turning off the AC isn't bad either. When I was in school.......
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Old 02-10-2010, 19:51   #417
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Of course turning off the AC isn't bad either. When I was in school.......
Heh!
.......
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Old 02-10-2010, 20:54   #418
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Here in Massachusetts, we get to enjoy electricity for about $0.10/KW. At that price all can afford to use AC and maybe even electric heat. BUT!

YEAH BUT! There is also a delivery charge of another $0.10/KW bringing the delivered electric cost to about $0.20/KW and folks, that is HIGH. There is discussion about saving energy. Just what does that mean? Low intensity lamps? Here one needs not be a Greeny, all that is needed is the shock when the electric bill is opened.

But again what does saving energy such as electrical energy really mean??? It means if the population suddenly saved 10% in electrical killowatt consumption, the electric company would petition the Department of Public Utilities FOR A RATE INCREASE. They did just that back in the seventies when most people followed government recommendations to "conserve energy" during the oil squeeze. Remember the gas lines???

Again back to what it means to save energy. By that I refer only to fossil fuel powered generation. Weeell...........maybe we could use windmills!!! HEY THAT IS A GREAT IDEA!!! YES SIREE! Heck, who cares if energy is wasted if the energy source is wind!!!

Well the consumer cares and cares dearly. It has nothing to do with being a Greeny at all. It has to do with economics. For example, Cape Wind proposed to install 130 windgenerators in Nantucket Sound. In addition to federal and state grants, Cape Wind has approval to "sell"....... electricity for $0.20/KW and the stuff still requires distribution. Their cost is twice that of the so called fosil fuel gererators even with both federal and state grants.

So my fellow cruisers, what energy savings really amounts to is raising the price of the product to a level where only fools would not conserve.

Foggy
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Old 02-10-2010, 21:06   #419
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My mother was a nut about saving money on utilities and so she lived mostly in the dark. However, her electrical bills always stayed the same even with most everything turned off. The reason, utilities have a "minimum" billing amount and whether you use electric equal to that amount or none at all, you still pay the minimum billing.
- - If I can remember right it took some serious political fighting for those who self-generate via wind/solar/water and want to be still hooked into the main power grid (for those rainy/cloudy/windless days) to be legally able to do it.
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Old 02-10-2010, 22:15   #420
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your rate isn't bad. Here is what happens the power company is running the efficient generators and as demand increases more plants come on line less efficient because the rate is fixed the power company is making less per kwh also they are now burning diesel and coal at higher rates. When we become efficient they make more money per kwh and don't need to build more plants. THis year there were 6 east coast grid emergencys involving a load demand response. in the past 4 years there had been zero. That means without a reduction in demand the grid would not have been able to supply the electricity it was asked to maintain. In short massive black outs and grid failures like the one we had several years back. Those who are being creative and reducing use, participating in smart grid and response programs allowed you to keep your lights on. If we didn't do this you dont have any lights no ac no tv etc.
When the diesel plants fire up your burning mideast oil and American dollars flow off our borders. There are some real good reasons to conserve. Then there is environmental impacts but I think given the benefit of conservation we don't need to go there.
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