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Old 06-09-2011, 18:25   #46
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

Let's not get into the human caused global warming debate again. That was hashed over to death last year. The topic here, I think is man's effect on the deep ocean and I for one can see first hand that effect over the last many decades. And little or none of it has to do with "global warming."
- - It has to do with resource depletion/wasting. Overfishing, excessive pollution and population and quite a few other human caused problems are having an effect on the oceans.
- - But is life on earth going to cease to exist when humans have eaten and polluted themselves out of existence. Nope. It was recently discovered/determined that there was significant life on earth before the period known as the "heavy bombardment" during which the planet was pounded back to a molten state of volcanoes and lava. And - live arose again and we are part of that.
- - So the question of man's effect on the deep oceans is not a thing that the earth worries or cares about since if we make ourselves extinct the next organism with arise to take our place.
- - As have been discussed here and in other similar threads there is no practical or realistic way that humans will stop over-consuming or polluting until our world population collapses catastrophically. Considering that maybe a wild estimate that only one tenth of one percent of the 7 billion on the earth care about such things as resource depletion and pollution, we should be more concerned with preserving our own neighborhood/country from being wiped out by the rest of the world's hungry, greedy and ruthless folk.
- - On a cruising boat we are very close to being a closed self-sufficient entity. Just add fuel and some food and we can live a very nice life. IMHO, each country really needs to pay more attention to making their population self-sufficient if they want to preserve their standard of living.
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Old 06-09-2011, 18:34   #47
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

osirissail,

There is a strange paradox going on here, on the one hand I agree with pretty much everything that you say. On the other, there is something in your delivery that irks the living daylights outta me.

What comes across, or what I hear regardless of what you mean, is a certain arrogance or lack of remorse or humility for the situation humanity is in.

While all you say may well be true, and I tend to think you are about right, then humanity has done much to cause this mess.

Some recognition of our role and perhaps a wee show of regret would be in order. No?
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Old 06-09-2011, 19:02   #48
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

What do you suggest to do about the issue? The only real answer is population number related.
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Old 06-09-2011, 19:12   #49
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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Oops, missing a few zeros there big guy.
Oops... Billions not millions. Thanks
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Old 06-09-2011, 19:13   #50
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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What do you suggest to do about the issue? The only real answer is population number related.
I didn't say I had an answer, I don't.

IF there is an answer then it is 'population number related.'

So, as I see it, we have made a mess we can't get out of, we have flown into a box canyon, death spiral, whatever.

I'm not even so much into blame, we probably got here with knowing we had crossed a tipping point.

Being without remorse is a bit rich.
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Old 06-09-2011, 19:15   #51
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

hpeer, I only regret what I did that was not right or moral. What other citizens of the world do is their responsibility and since I have no desire to take the job of world dictator, there is nothing I can do about it. What I can do is live my life and cruise with a clean wake and a respect for Mother Nature. I am and always have been a realist.
- - What is that saying back in the free love/drug years? - "Reality is for those who can't deal with drugs." Those were some seriously fun years. But we will never see them again, that is reality.
- - In full time live aboard cruising a recognition of reality is what keeps you alive. Harsh, yes, but the alternative is wishful thinking and most probably a very short cruising life if you live long enough to get back to land.
- - So yes, it does irk me that humanity is incapable of recognizing and acting to prevent its demise. (I am also a Space enthusiast and it really irks me that we killed that program - but that is another forum).
- - My thrust is that to be a successful long term live aboard cruiser (circumnavigator, if that is your thing) reality is an essential attribute. There are just too many things you cannot change like check-in/out procedures, local laws, and the political attitudes of governments for one another, etc., etc. I, personally, am retired from tilting at windmills and only want to live what little life I have left as comfortably as possible and with minimal hassles.
- - I would hazard that any informed intelligent person would be irked by the reality of what is happening in the world both nationally and internationally. Wishing it would go away or getting bent into a pretzel about it doesn't do much except make your G.I. doctor richer so he can afford a bigger boat.
- - So I completely agree it is a "strange paradox" but only you can decide what is important in your life and what effect you as an individual can have to change things that are basically, IMHO, human nature. If you are young, I say go for it, maybe you will be the one to make a difference - Gandhi did - and others, but at an extreme price.
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Old 06-09-2011, 20:26   #52
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The third world is not the problem, remember that it is the meek who inherit the earth, have you been to the third world? Got to tell u it's pretty f-ing meek. we are influencing our ionosphere and ruining our oceans without which life on earth will not be possible, blue green algae account for the largest supply of oxygen in our world and without them we will all starve an suffocate. Bees alone could cause our demise and they are in decline. Your markets will have no food as crops require pollinators, how can you possibly think that our use of non upgradable plastics, overfishing, deforestation, (which caused all those deserts in Africa and surrounding areas), combustion engines (not that I don't like them ) oil plundering and nuclear waste dumping could not have an effect on the world in which we ALL live. man I wish I could be you it would be blissfull.
Oh yeah and buy the way- we lead the world in our consumption rates. US of disillusion is number one. Go buy a Ho Ho and remember to ask for the plastic bag, throw it in the water--cause remember there's an island of them floating in the ocean--- it's an ecosystem all it's own.
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Old 06-09-2011, 21:52   #53
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

I don't believe that any thinking person can read studies like this without becoming mournful over our collective effect on the planet. However, this is the price we pay for the way we have chosen to live. Walk around your boat and think about the petro-chemical processes involved in making the fiberglass, the hoses, the varnishes, the laminates, the sails, the running rigging, etc, etc. No doubt, at least some of these manufacturers dumped chemical waste into the ocean so that we could have what we wanted. I would also doubt that the horrendous effects of Teak deforestation come to mind as we admire a finely varnished Teak bulkhead. Face it, we want what we want when we want it. And we don't particularly want to think about where it came from... until a study like this pops up for discussion. Then we tend to rail against "those other people" who perpetuate the tragedy when, in fact, we're all to blame. And the "environmentalists" are no better really. To save gasoline and energy, we now have the Prius. If you research it, you'll find that the nickel mine from whence the Prius battery is created is an ecological nightmare. Someone calculated that before you even turn the key on a Prius, the equivalent energy of 1,000 gallons of gasoline have been expended in creating and shipping the battery and it's materials from Canada to China to Japan to the U.S.. Or how about the new "energy-saving" lightbulbs whose mercury is so toxic that the EPA has a 15 step procedure to follow if you break a simple lightbulb.

The only way to turn the tide is to turn backward to a more primitive time. Before plastic, before synthetic fabrics, before most manufacturing, before just about everything we currently know and enjoy. And this just ain't gonna happen.

So, we do what we can do. I carry a pool skimmer on board for harbor cruises so I can scoop junk out of the marina waters. I don't throw or pour stuff in the water. I use a holding tank. I try not to do more harm than is already being done in my name.

I think that's all most of us can do.

Mike
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Old 06-09-2011, 22:34   #54
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There are alternatives. We are not being offered them as choices. Think about the new alternatives to plastic and the like, their available if your wallets fat enough to pay for them. The fact is that the way things are is spinning the gears for the machine that is clearly driving, until we throw a wrench were still just another greased wheel. Your right, I do drive to work, cause I found that riding a bus might get me killed (people always start fights with me, no really, they do) I do not always recycle ( which is also a huge bs move by our environmentalists) it causes huge pollution and power consumption. But really your right until the lights go off and the shelves run bare, we have no choices. Just decisions to make.
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:23   #55
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

Itís not all environmental doom and gloom. Yes, humans have defaced and destroyed many areas of the planet and continue to do so daily. There are also many who try to undo that harm and help the earth heal herself more quickly.

Here are some links to some videos describing two recovery efforts Ė 1) on the cleanup of a heavily polluted Inland Seto Sea in Japan using Effective Microorganisms (EM). And 2) the Greening of the Desert video showing how a permaculture design can bring life back to salty desert dust. Hopefully some of this will provide some inspiration.

We buy the EM culture and then extend it in to what is known as Activated EM (AEM). Six ounces of the mother culture from the stock bottle will make 1 gallon of AEM. It's very economical to use. We use it in the marine and RV heads to eliminate the odours. I find that EM works better than the other microbe products sold at the marina and RV supply stores.

We routinely pour AEM down all the drains as well to keep them open and spray it in the cat litter box to eliminate odours there too. Our friends have used it to clean up farm ponds, irrigation ditches, grease traps, to keep the odours down in the milking barns, to keep the chickens clean and healthy and some use it in their fish tanks, both fresh and salt water varieties to keep the algae bloom down and to keep the fish healthy.

EM culture also makes a great probiotic ginger beer.

EM Cleanup of Inland Seto Sea
Part 1
http://youtu.be/_Uf3NHeObmM

Part 2
http://youtu.be/ey0zO9_ldeE

Part 3
http://youtu.be/6Bgm_aLq_Sk

Part 4
Seto Inland Sea (Part 4 of 7) - YouTube

Part 5
Seto Inland Sea (part 5 of 7) - YouTube

Part 6
Seto Inland Sea (part 6 of 7) - YouTube

Part 7
Seto Inland Sea (Part 7 of 7) - YouTube

It is my understanding that EMRO (Effective Micro organism Research Organization) had offered to help with cleanup in the Gulf of Mexico through several non-profit NGOs but was blocked from doing so by a number of issues, possibly related to getting permission from the right government agency to do so. The EM folks have helped with disaster cleanup in a number of areas over the years. If anyone knows a key decision maker that could help with that, please let the folks at Teraganix know. They can coordinate it from there. I do know a few cruisers who are brewing up AEM on their boats and routinely pouring it onto their beaches and into the Gulf to help. Itís only a drop in the bucket. One day the drops will add up. The folks who are spraying AEM on the gunk on the beach are seeing improvement.

EM Applications After the 2004 Tsunami.


EM Use in Hawaii Ė Iím including this one for the penguin scenes. They seem to enjoy their EM baths.
Effective Microorganisms Hawaii - YouTube

Greening of the Desert Ė restoring salty desert dust into a productive growing area.
Part 1
Greening The Desert Part 1 - YouTube

Part 2
Greening The Desert Part 2 - YouTube

Part 3
Greening The Desert Part 3 - YouTube
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:39   #56
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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Itís not all environmental doom and gloom. Yes, humans have defaced and destroyed many areas of the planet and continue to do so daily. There are also many who try to undo that harm and help the earth heal herself more quickly.

Here are some links to some videos describing two recovery efforts Ė 1) on the cleanup of a heavily polluted Inland Seto Sea in Japan using Effective Microorganisms (EM). And 2) the Greening of the Desert video showing how a permaculture design can bring life back to salty desert dust. Hopefully some of this will provide some inspiration.
We need to be careful that as humans we don't play "god".

To often introduced species, whether flora or fauna, have had horrible unintended consequences.

I sat on our province's Endangered Species board for 14 years, evaluating among other things, the implementation of recovery plans proposed by the scientists who were experts in their fields.

Some of those species became endangered because of introduced species. (Think of lion fish in the Caribbean and the issues surrounding them).

NONE of the recovery plans ever contemplated introducing any non-native flora or fauna to combat a problem.

I would very, very, very cautious in suggesting a non-native biological solution for a particular issue. The consequences are too risky.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:02   #57
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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We need to be careful that as humans we don't play "god"...
Like it or not, I believe that we are playing a God-like role in our changing planet.

A group of geologists has formally proposed designating a new geologic epoch, the Anthropocene, which would encompass the past 200 years or so of geologic history. The action is appropriate, say the authors, because during the past 2 centuries, human activity has become the primary driver of most of the major changes in Earth's topography and climate.

The Earth has been subject to the same kinds of physical forces (wind, waves, sunlight) throughout the planet's existence. But life has been much more varied in its impact. The appearance of oxygen-producing photogenesis, the rise of land plants, and many other evolutionary events have shaped the planet in dramatic ways. And now, humans.

In the past 200 years, ever since the human population reached 1 billion, the use of fossil fuels, the growth of metropolises, the industrial revolution, and other influences have begun to affect the stratigraphic process, altering the physical and chemical nature of ocean sediments, ice cores, and surface deposits.

c:/anthropocene/index.html

Dawn of the Anthropocene Epoch? Earth has entered new age of geological time, experts say

Anthropocene: Age of Man - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:14   #58
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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We need to be careful that as humans we don't play "god".

To often introduced species, whether flora or fauna, have had horrible unintended consequences.

I sat on our province's Endangered Species board for 14 years, evaluating among other things, the implementation of recovery plans proposed by the scientists who were experts in their fields.

Some of those species became endangered because of introduced species. (Think of lion fish in the Caribbean and the issues surrounding them).

NONE of the recovery plans ever contemplated introducing any non-native flora or fauna to combat a problem.

I would very, very, very cautious in suggesting a non-native biological solution for a particular issue. The consequences are too risky.
I totaly agree. The introduction of a non native species into an area is not only irresponsible and ignorant, it's criminal. It serves no purpose but to exacerbate the stiuation.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:21   #59
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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Like it or not, I believe that we are playing a God-like role in our changing planet.

A group of geologists has formally proposed designating a new geologic epoch, the Anthropocene, which would encompass the past 200 years or so of geologic history. The action is appropriate, say the authors, because during the past 2 centuries, human activity has become the primary driver of most of the major changes in Earth's topography and climate.

The Earth has been subject to the same kinds of physical forces (wind, waves, sunlight) throughout the planet's existence. But life has been much more varied in its impact. The appearance of oxygen-producing photogenesis, the rise of land plants, and many other evolutionary events have shaped the planet in dramatic ways. And now, humans.

In the past 200 years, ever since the human population reached 1 billion, the use of fossil fuels, the growth of metropolises, the industrial revolution, and other influences have begun to affect the stratigraphic process, altering the physical and chemical nature of ocean sediments, ice cores, and surface deposits.

c:/anthropocene/index.html

Dawn of the Anthropocene Epoch? Earth has entered new age of geological time, experts say

Anthropocene: Age of Man - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine
My questions to them is how do they know? What data point is the seperating factor? What was the cause of the warming period? What event 15000 years ago caused the earth to stop cooling and start warming? Was it orbit? Was it the natural variation of the wobble on the axis, as some propose? What seperates this era from the midieval warming period? It was warmer then than now, and remained that way for 300 years. What was the cause of the little ice age? I think that falls into their 200 year range. To many questions unanswered.
Scientists! The only thing they know for sure is what they don't know.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:24   #60
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Re: Man's Effect on Deep Ocean - Scary Study

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I totaly agree. The introduction of a non native species into an area is not only irresponsible and ignorant, it's criminal. It serves no purpose but to exacerbate the stiuation.
Birds and other animals do it all the time. Species ride the oceans and on the backs of other animals to make their ways across the oceans. We just speed them up. But in general, I too disagree with introducing one species to deal with what we see as a problem of another species. The real solution would be to quite making things worse and let the earth heal herself.
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