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Old 19-03-2016, 15:49   #16
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Chip Ford's Catalina 22 restoration: it is up to $40,000 now.

"Chip Ahoy" Homeport

New Catalina 22, no options, no expensive motor like Chip Ahoy.

http://www.boattrader.com/listing/20...-Keel-99694403
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Old 19-03-2016, 16:23   #17
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

From January Sailing magazine (hmmm Ford was quoted in the article... and is the editor and technical director for a magazine that focuses on the C22.)

Like most any older boat, delamination is always possible from water intrusion in the deck, so check for bulges, discoloration and loose hardware. The aluminum-trimmed windows tend to leak. Some of the earliest C22s had plywood stringers that could be prone to rot. Boats made after 1976 have beefier masts and larger gauge standing rigging. The cable and pivot pins on the swing keel may need replacement due to wear from side-to-side movement. The spring that provides tension for the clutch on the keel winch may also require attention. Inspect the hull for damage if the boat had been trailered extensively. If the model has a pop-top coachroof, examine the gasket for wear or deterioration. Owners report that the cockpit scuppers are slow to drain and many have installed additional scuppers on the transom.
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Old 19-03-2016, 16:29   #18
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azul View Post
Chip Ford's Catalina 22 restoration: it is up to $40,000 now

"Chip Ahoy" Homeport
Ludicrous is the term that comes to my mind.

I suppose that he has enjoyed his project(s), but to what end? It is still a Cat-22... and I don't intend bashing in that statement. I owned and sailed extensively in Catalina 22 hull #61, purchased directly from Frank Butler in North Hollywood. Did lots of miles in her, racing on SF Bay and cruising the California coast and Canadian Gulf Islands, and I appreciate the capabilities of that little boat.

I suspect that the price asked for Chips Ahoy will continue its current downward trend for a while...

Now, back to the OP: I have no quarrel with buying a boat with the idea of "fixin' her up". I think paying a kilobuck for the one he describes is way too much, and if SAILING is his aim (as it seems to be), a boat that is much less of a project should be available for not so much more money, and this would get him out on the water sooner.

Azul, you seem to have made a business out of flipping older boats, and that is cool. It also suggests that you have a bundle of skills, tools, sources of supply and facilities that are not common to newbies. Perhaps this has distorted your viewpoint, as what is easy for you might not be so for the OP.

So, my opinion still stands, FWIW.

Jim
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Old 19-03-2016, 17:28   #19
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

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Ludicrous is the term that comes to my mind.

I suppose that he has enjoyed his project(s), but to what end? It is still a Cat-22... and I don't intend bashing in that statement. I owned and sailed extensively in Catalina 22 hull #61, purchased directly from Frank Butler in North Hollywood. Did lots of miles in her, racing on SF Bay and cruising the California coast and Canadian Gulf Islands, and I appreciate the capabilities of that little boat.

I suspect that the price asked for Chips Ahoy will continue its current downward trend for a while...

Now, back to the OP: I have no quarrel with buying a boat with the idea of "fixin' her up". I think paying a kilobuck for the one he describes is way too much, and if SAILING is his aim (as it seems to be), a boat that is much less of a project should be available for not so much more money, and this would get him out on the water sooner.

Azul, you seem to have made a business out of flipping older boats, and that is cool. It also suggests that you have a bundle of skills, tools, sources of supply and facilities that are not common to newbies. Perhaps this has distorted your viewpoint, as what is easy for you might not be so for the OP.

So, my opinion still stands, FWIW.

Jim
Yes, except that I was a newbie restoring sailboats until four years ago. I learned from reading this and other forums and watching Boatworks (Andy is great) videos etc. While I was restoring a Cal 34 on a tight budget from a complete wreck. Now that was a project! It ate up a year of my life but was well worth it in many ways (developing skills, saving money, knowing the boat intimately, etc etc) and I liked it so much I quit retirement and took it up as a vocation. The fellow that did the Pearson Triton 27 "Glissade" has done the same thing. James Baldwin made a career out of restoring boats after restoring his famous Atom.

The difference between the huge amount of time it takes a DIY person to do a project and someone that does it professionally is that 90% of the time spent by a DIY is dithering around trying to figure things out or doing it wrong and having to do it over. Been there, done that. This is not rocket science, most of it is very basic hands on sweaty, dirty work. Not for Yotties. Spending too much money restoring old boats, cars, airplanes and homes is also an American tradition. Ludicrous is in the eye of the beholder. Have you considered that Mr. Ford probably used his boat as a focal point for his magazine innumerable times along with the self-satisfaction that comes from fixing something yourself and not being a slave to expensive boat yards? How about not having to worry about whether something will go wrong because you KNOW that you can fix it yourself? Even your diesel, as Sailorchic proved.

I suspect your viewpoint comes from living on a huge boat for too long and forgetting what it is like to be a "little guy" starting out. Respectfully, I HAVE NOT.
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Old 19-03-2016, 17:41   #20
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Do I have access to better tools and workspace? Yes I do, recently. But I started by working outside literally shade tree style.

Now I have indoor, covered and outdoor space that is pretty much unlimited at a friend's factory. Plasma cutter, fork lift, laser fabric cutter, CNC machine, welder etc. That friend is a former customer, and my rent is free for maintaining his 22 foot motorboat. We met when he wanted me to restore his 1970's piece of junk, which I told him was junk four different times before he relented and abandoned the project after spending $2200.

Resourcefulness is what is needed to work on boats.
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Old 19-03-2016, 18:22   #21
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

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Originally Posted by Azul View Post
Yes, except that I was a newbie restoring sailboats until four years ago. I learned from reading this and other forums and watching Boatworks (Andy is great) videos etc. While I was restoring a Cal 34 on a tight budget from a complete wreck. Now that was a project! It ate up a year of my life but was well worth it in many ways (developing skills, saving money, knowing the boat intimately, etc etc) and I liked it so much I quit retirement and took it up as a vocation. The fellow that did the Pearson Triton 27 "Glissade" has done the same thing. James Baldwin made a career out of restoring boats after restoring his famous Atom.

The difference between the huge amount of time it takes a DIY person to do a project and someone that does it professionally is that 90% of the time spent by a DIY is dithering around trying to figure things out or doing it wrong and having to do it over. Been there, done that. This is not rocket science, most of it is very basic hands on sweaty, dirty work. Not for Yotties. Spending too much money restoring old boats, cars, airplanes and homes is also an American tradition. Ludicrous is in the eye of the beholder. Have you considered that Mr. Ford probably used his boat as a focal point for his magazine innumerable times along with the self-satisfaction that comes from fixing something yourself and not being a slave to expensive boat yards? How about not having to worry about whether something will go wrong because you KNOW that you can fix it yourself? Even your diesel, as Sailorchic proved.

I suspect your viewpoint comes from living on a huge boat for too long and forgetting what it is like to be a "little guy" starting out. Respectfully, I HAVE NOT.
Quote:
Further, while people lose money on boats all the time primarily by letting them die a slow and painful death through neglect, I have not lost money on any of the dozens that I have bought and sold over the last eight years since I stopped buying new ones.
Respectfully, I suspect that your viewpoint comes from having restored "dozens that I have bought and sold", and that you have forgotten what it is to be a novice sailor and boat restorer without experience, tools and skills.

And although I have indeed lived aboard boats for a long time, not all have been "huge", and I have always done all my own maintenance and restoration work. Ooops, I lied: a couple of years ago I hired a rigger to pull our mast and weld up some cracks in the spreader bases; I no longer have access to TiG welders, nor do I have a crane. But, yes, I have replaced deck coring, glassed up new stringers in a hull, followed instructions from S&S in reinforcing the bow sections in my Yankee 30, built hardware for various boats from s/s, aluminium, perspex, GRP and timber. I've rebuilt a BMW D35 on board while living aboard... all those things that you mentioned, and I have not forgotten too much.

And I still think that the OP would be better served by following my advice than yours. This is an opinion, and I do not represent it as fact or immutable. It is what I would do in his place.

Jim
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Old 19-03-2016, 18:43   #22
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

My memory is much longer than four years, and I not you offered telephone advice to help the newbie along the way thank you very much.

Opinions are like as*&holes, everyone has one. Thanks for reminding why I never come here anymore, as many have done recently. I now own a C22, I am NOW restoring it, I am now perusing the C22 literature, I am NOW still on a tight budget. But hey forty years ago you were up to date on them, you will keep on trying to have the last word as many others do on this site and this is why I so rarely come here anymore. Why don't you spend your time sending PM's to these newbies or offering direct help instead of composing snarky personal posts directed toward those spending their valued time trying to help someone?

Recently I also bought a cheap Sanibel 18. To a newbie, it would look fantastic with beautiful new cushions and a newish roller furler. But it is going to be a real PITA to restore due to the way it was built. And it is a highly respected brand, in the same vein as a West Wight Potter 19. Same sails even.

Fixing a couple of square feet of delamination of deck core on a C22 is child's play for anyone, not a boat deal breaker. He could probably just live with it unless he is planning on sailing it far offshore instead of island hopping. Boingy ain't hazardous to your health.

Mr. Cate, show us your example of a $1000 C22. Counterintuitively, neglected pocket cruisers often cost more than their larger brethren. Ragged out 27 and 30 footers are everywhere and are time consuming and expensive to fix. As I stated before, a big difference between a C22 and your 30/35 etc foot boats in work load.

The OP has probably already left and gone to the Catalina sites where there is a wealth of information.
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Old 19-03-2016, 20:01   #23
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Well, Azul, if you feel that responses that disagree with your ideas, even though worded in a respectful manner are "snarky", then you will indeed likely be happier elsewhere than on CF. One of the benefits of forum participation is being exposed to many varied opinions, and they don't always coincide with yours. Sometimes the conflicting opinions are pretty aggressively expressed, and that is regrettable IMO. I try to avoid the practice.

I'm always saddened when folks decide to depart, but it happens anyway.

And I will be interested in what the OP decides to do if he enlightens us. And if you look back, my suggestion was that the OP think about buying a boat that did not require so much restoration, not that there were necessarily better ones available for 1000 dollars. I've not been in the States much for thirty years now, and do not pretend to know what market values there are. But I am sure that there are better boats to be had...

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Old 20-03-2016, 09:04   #24
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

An example of snarky. Where I live, saying this in a bar to someone would get you punched in the face.


"And I still think that the OP would be better served by following my advice than yours."

I could go on, but I am out of here.
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Old 20-03-2016, 09:26   #25
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

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I think the OP has done his homework and picked out two great boats! Both are Hall of Famers with way over 20,000 units sold between the two models. In comparison, there were only 347 Cal 34's built.

Quantity over quality/suitability?

Both of the OP's boats are center boarders or perhaps swing keel. In the case of these 2 boats such an arrangement would be suitable for day sailing on weekending near shore.

The OP indicates the boat is to be used around Cancun. It is not clear if larger chuncks of the Caribbean are intended.

While there are centerboarders that are suitable for offshore I don't believe these would qualify. If the board breaks off there isn't enough lateral area left in the underbody to go upwind at all. Issue with ballasting may also pertain.


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Old 20-03-2016, 10:04   #26
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pirate Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

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Originally Posted by Azul View Post
An example of snarky. Where I live, saying this in a bar to someone would get you punched in the face.


"And I still think that the OP would be better served by following my advice than yours."

I could go on, but I am out of here.
Damn..!! I found folks in the 'Back Street' had a better sense of humour than that..
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Old 20-03-2016, 10:37   #27
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azul View Post
An example of snarky. Where I live, saying this in a bar to someone would get you punched in the face.


"And I still think that the OP would be better served by following my advice than yours."

I could go on, but I am out of here.
Snarky could well be considered taking quotes COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT.

What Jim said was this:

And I still think that the OP would be better served by following my advice than yours. This is an opinion, and I do not represent it as fact or immutable. It is what I would do in his place.

Azul, that's simply not right or fair. Or necessary.

Jim presented a fair assessment of the issues facing the OP.

On this and other boating forums, we have all repeatedly come across questions that start off something like: "I don't anything about XYZ, but I have this BIG problem of sparks, broken bits, steering failure...you name it. What do I do!?!"

Well none of us was born an electrician, mechanic, plumber or sailmaker. We all learned how to do it.

That's what these forums are for, but in many if not most cases buying a book and getting your hands dirty is the most useful course of action. Why? 'Cuz that's why they wrote the danged books in the first place, because some tasks take a much longer time and number of words to explain than even the longest internet forum thread ever written.

Point being is that both Jim and Azul are right. Azul offered boat building tips to point out to the OP that it could be done without expensive boat yard prices. Jim noted that he'd done many of these kinds of repairs in his experience, but that for a first timer there were OPTIONS, like buying one in better condition.

They both provided valuable CHOICES for the OP.

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Old 20-03-2016, 10:45   #28
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

Having just bought a Catalina 22 about 2 months ago, I think I can safely say that the price the OP is thinking about is not a bargain at all. Take the advice from this forum and find a better deal. I watched trailer sailors on Ebay and craigs list for several months and ended up with a 37 year old Cat 22 that had sat outside for 7 years on a trailer, badly neglected. I found upon inspection that if I looked past all of the green crud and stains, the boat was in pretty good shape. It was also well equipped. 7 sails, all in good to excellent condition, an outboard that looks like it has never been in water, the important mast raising rig to do it single handed, anchor, VHF, life jackets, etc. It has always been a fresh water boat, so even the jib hanks are still bronze colored and not all corroded. One new tire on the trailer and current paper-work. I paid $1000. Yes , I got a hell of a deal, but I have put almost that much again into the boat since I have bought it, even though it was pretty well equipped in the first place. To tell a newbie that $750 or $1000 for a poorly equipped, fixer upper is a good deal, is doing that man no service at all. I hope the OP does a lot more reading and following boat adds before he puts his money down. He would learn a lot by joining, or hanging around a local sailing club, and might even find a good bargain from word of mouth. I hope the OP does well and finds a good boat, but these dont seem to fit the need. _____Grant.
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Old 20-03-2016, 11:00   #29
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Re: Macgregor 25 vs Catalina 22

I second that you need to add the pictures. You will get much better help if you do.

You said you 'want to buy a project boat'. I assume that means it is the project AND the sailing that appeal to you. If that is the case ignore all the naysayers here, but for sure choose carefully. One of the best things to do is drive around and look in peoples yards. If you see a boat under a tarp that clearly has not moved in years, knock on their door and ask if they want to sell it. Most people probably just want to see them gone, but are too lazy to sell them.

As to these two boats, there is not much to go on. Sound like the Catalina does not have a trailer? Trailers are expensive, so if it does not have one, I would not buy it based just on that. On the plus side, as others have pointed out, Catalinas are ideal project boats because it is so easy to get parts and help from other owners. No way I would pay $1000 for it.
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