Looking for Advice on First Large Ship

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Nope... he's just another dude fulla ****... else why's he on here asking dumb questions... you got the dosh go for it... I'm seriously bored with folks talking big money talking a load of crap... you got the money hire experts..
you aint... talk to us.... Sheesh...

are you for real?
lets break down your flippant comment.

i have lots of money.

i should spend lots of money.

this is why some people are destine to be poor. you do not save lots of money by spending it on things you can get for free.

i am the kind of guy who goes into mcdonalds and trys to put together a meal under $3 that will fill me up.
i am the kind of guy who finds something on sale, and fills the freezer with that single item.
i am also the kind of guy who sold his viper last week, i have photo proof, so he can peruse his dream of being on the water.

and FYI you can find a 52' cat for under 200K if you look.

here is the exact boat i was referring to.
1987 Norman Cross Trimaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

so please, if you do not have helpful advice for a beginner sailor, keep the flippant remarks under your breath.

sailr69, you are correct, i am still a long ways from embarking. i have 4-8 months to get under way.
between then and now i will need sailing lessons, time under sail, books on rigging, books on crossing. however anyone could do my first goal, and that is a trip in the ditch from NY to FL. this is why i need to figure out the boat that will do that, as well as circumnavigate.

i give a big thank you to those who are putting me right into a sailboat. i believe that to be best, and i expect fuel to be over $5 by summer, so i will be asking another dumb question to go with the rest
can i run a smaller AC off solar? thinking of perhaps 10-15 220W solar panels. don't have any experience there thou.

[simonmd]

Yes he is. I happen to know that this guy has done many long distance passages and so knows what he's talking about. I really don't want to be rude or sound condecending but you really are acting VERY nieve.

this is why some people are destine to be poor. you do not save lots of money by spending it on things you can get for free.

Like someone who wanted to go round the world under power as opposed to FREE wind power? I think the flippant tag works both ways here.

You seem to be thinking of a boat as a floating house. I've got news for you, it isnt. Boats are generaly very well packaged and you'd be amazed what you can cram into them. For your plans I would suggest this.

A 40ft cat. This will have four double cabins, some have three with a larger master head (bathroom). One cabin for you, one cabin converted to storage, one cabin converted to office / filing cabinets, etc. That is PLENTY.

With regards to 'a years worth of food', WHY? Are you planning on going round the world non stop? Of course you'll be carrying a fair amount but a years supply is crazy. Again, a very nieve point of view. The MOST you'll be at sea non stop is 3-6 weeks by the sound of it, you then re supply at your next stop.

Also, I guess the fact that your budget for the boat was only 160k, we assumed that you werent rich. (I know 160k is not a small amount of money but in the boating world it's not a lot) If you've got the money then go for a large 40ft cat thats less than 10 years old.

With regards to staying dry, are you sure you want a boat? You WILL get wet at some point, simple. Most cats can have the cockpit made to be relatively weather proof but you'll never be 100% out of it.

Alot of the newer stuff will have AC fitted as standard but it can be a bit heavy on the power to run. You'll need to factor in some of your budget for solar and wind generation plus probably getting the batteries renewed and upgraded.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by simonmd

Also, I guess the fact that your budget for the boat was only 160k, we assumed that you werent rich. (I know 160k is not a small amount of money but in the boating world it's not a lot) If you've got the money then go for a large 40ft cat thats less than 10 years old.

i am not rich, thats why i didnt understand the remark to begin with unless the person saying it was poor

i have enough, and make enough to be happy, and to have nice things,
my total worth is well under 500,000 so i would not consider it rich?
however it could be relative. if a person makes 15,000 a year and is 80,000 in debt they might consider me rich. dont care frankly, and thats why we got off topic. i was accused of talking big money. well whats big money?
if i said i was going to buy The Maltese Falcon

then you can call me whatever you choose. i am asking simple questions about a boat that will cost the same as a nice house.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by scoobert

and FYI you can find a 52' cat for under 200K if you look.

here is the exact boat i was referring to.
1987 Norman Cross Trimaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

so please, if you do not have helpful advice for a beginner sailor, keep the flippant remarks under your breath.

Item 1... a Cat has 2 hulls.... Tri infers 3 hulls...
also there's no way your going to find 600sq feet office space plus accomodation on a boat less than 200K.. try adding 5 zero's and you may be getting close... or buy an old fishing trawler and convert the hold...
I usually have a little advice I try to give out but when it comes to certain types of questions... I've been known to cough up the odd furball or two...
I'll leave you to carry on your quest in peace...
Good hunting

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Item 1... a Cat has 2 hulls.... Tri infers 3 hulls...
also there's no way your going to find 600sq feet office space plus accomodation on a boat less than 200K.. try adding 5 zero's and you may be getting close... or buy an old fishing trawler and convert the hold...
I usually have a little advice I try to give out but when it comes to certain types of questions... I've been known to cough up the odd furball or two...
I'll leave you to carry on your quest in peace...
Good hunting

i realize it has 3 hulls, other then the 3rd hull i dont see a big enough difference, perhaps i should have said multihull?

600 sqft overall, not just for the office.
i realize thats only 20x30 or 15x40. i figured with that math a 52' should be that big.

[skipmac]

Hi Scoobert,

Seems like your thread continues and has drawn some attention, some not to your liking. Perhaps I can offer some explanation and suggetions that might help you get the most bang for your Cruisers Forum buck.

Originally Posted by scoobert

are you for real?
lets break down your flippant comment.

Yes you have gotten some flip and sarcastic remarks. If I may, let me explain a bit.

Long term members of the forum have seen lots of questions posted by dreamers, many of them that have literally never seen a cruising boat except in a magaziine or movie. Some are serious and do seem to end up following the dream but the majority are either totally clueless or just totally bored and looking for the latest hobby to fill their boring life. 99% of these fade away quickly, often after a single post on the forum, sometimes as long as it takes to find out that crusing takes a little more work than buying an old VW bus and driving to Big Sur.

Typically see a few of these pop up every week, often characterized by asking how to do something that is impractical, unlikely or beyond their means and then refusing to give up on the idea even when all responses explain why it is impractical or unfeasible for one reason or another. Now everyone has to start somewhere and should be allowed a quota of impractical questions but after that goes on longer and longer it can start to sound like another impractical dreamer. You can imagine it can be difficult to realize that some of the posters may truly be real and why some members can lose patience with what looks like another silly day dreamer.

Originally Posted by scoobert

can i run a smaller AC off solar? thinking of perhaps 10-15 220W solar panels. don't have any experience there thou.

Completely impractical and in fact, on a boat probably impossible. The power used by even the smallest, regular AC unit is hugely more than the total potential power output of more panels than you could reasonably fit on a typical boat.

This is a place where I might make a suggestion. You do seem to be serious about pursuing the dream and there is a saying that their are no dumb questions. I do agree with that but on the other hand if you are truly serious I think by now you have gotten enough answers on the forum to realize it is going to take a little more work than you initially thought

Since you also admit to being very much new to this game I think you have reached the point where it would lend more credibility to your asperations if you now undertook to start the learning process on your own instead of asking the forum every little detail that pops into your head.

For example, this exact question has been asked and answered at least once so a little searching on the forum would probably have popped up the previous thread. Plus the most basic books on boat electrics, solar, etc would answer this question quite simply. Plus, if you do get out on the water on a boat, unless you have a bigger budget than you indicate, you will need to know a lot of this stuff anyway to keep your boat operating. Even if you could afford to pay mechanics and marinas to do all your maintenance and repair if you are anchored in the middle of nowhere and your framus breaks down there might not be a framus repair shop within 1000 miles so you'll have to do it anyway or call one on your satelllite phone and fly him in on your Bell Jetranger.

At this point in the plans perhaps time to do a little home study. Pick up some books on various subjects: sailing, boat electrics, boat maintenance and repair, etc. Also wouldn't hurt to go back and read old threads on this forum. The archives are a virtual encyclopedia of boating and sailing knowledge and just about anything you can imagine (and many you could not imagine) have been discussed in detail.

Hope you take this advise in the spirit in which it is given. Not meant to be critical but helpful. After all, every sailor on the forum had to start somewhere.

Skip

[Jack Tar]

I have a friend who brought a Grand Banks from Hawaii to Seattle. He used one engine and had the deck loaded with jugs of fuel. But then he was crazy. He did make it .

[simonmd]

Originally Posted by Jack Tar

I have a friend who brought a Grand Banks from Hawaii to Seattle. He used one engine and had the deck loaded with jugs of fuel. But then he was crazy. He did make it .

Grand Banks make fantastic boats, very sea worthy and great quality. But, also pretty expensive and the OP would be wise to note the use of the word 'crazy'.

Scoobert, with regard to your confusion between Cat's and Tri's, they are VERY different. In fact, you'll get much more usable room in a Cat'. Tri's are basically long thin monohulls with an 'outrigger' hull either side, most of the accomodation is in the main center hull. A Cat makes use of the two larger hulls either side and the large area between them.

I think you really need to go and view some boats, even if they are in the wrong area or price range, go and see some decent sized cat's or motorsailors, then you'll have a much better idea.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Hi Scoobert,

Skip

i can see the POV that i was not able to understand before. whats a framus? when i googled it, it looked like a guitar? i think with that point i should give some background. i went to school for auto-mech. out of school i worked in a repair shop for about 3 years before moving on. so if a wrist pin snaps in my engine, i am more then capable of tearing the entire thing to the bare block and rebuilding it. this is why i initially thought a trawler would be the best for me. i can fix anything on a trawler that might break, where with a sailboat i am starting from scratch. i dont even know what a yard arm is, what a junk rig is, a dagger keel, i dont even know how they call someone who is three sheets in the wind, drunk, short of know its a sailing term thou. i need to learn. this i know. right now its winter, and this is the extent of what i can do to learn short of books i have no time to read. i am sure i will be going to boat shows in the spring, and can even try some theorys on my own 25' powerboat. first thing this spring i will be enrolling in a 3 day cruise at the sailing school in new york harbor. oh, and i have some knowledge with knots. i will research cats and tri's further.

[skipmac]

Framus, another name for a widget or gadget or thingamajig or a whatchamacallit or a thingy. In this case to mean some non specified, miscellaneous boat part that you might need to repair.

Regarding sailboat repair, if you can overhaul a diesel engine then you could fix most anything else on a sailboat. Most things requiring maintenance or repair will be on the boat power or sail: pumps, electric, batteries, alternators, propellers, shafts, even winches or windlasses.

The main parts on a sailboat that aren't on a power boat is the rig and sails. Standing rig: wire and metal fittings that hold up the mast. Running rig: rope, pulleys and such to hoist and adjust the sails. Obviously none are exactly complicated compared to replacing the wrist pin in a rod.

Time to get you some basic books so you know what a yardarm might be (actually don't use'm any more, they're on old clipper ships or square riggers). Sheet, oddly enough is a line (rope) that you use to adjust the angle of the sail to the wind. Modern boats with a Bermuda rig (the triangular shaped sails you see on almost all modern yachts) have one sheet. Old ships with square sails might have three. If the helmsman (guy driving the boat) got really off course and got the wind behind the sails then everything would be all screwed up and require a lot of sorting out to get the ship and sails back where they should be. So getting the wind behind the sails would take a lot of inattention (like what may happen with a drunken sailor behind the wheel). So, three sheets in the wind.

[scoobert]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Framus, another name for a widget or gadget or thingamajig or a whatchamacallit or a thingy. In this case to mean some non specified, miscellaneous boat part that you might need to repair.

Regarding sailboat repair, if you can overhaul a diesel engine then you could fix most anything else on a sailboat. Most things requiring maintenance or repair will be on the boat power or sail: pumps, electric, batteries, alternators, propellers, shafts, even winches or windlasses.

The main parts on a sailboat that aren't on a power boat is the rig and sails. Standing rig: wire and metal fittings that hold up the mast. Running rig: rope, pulleys and such to hoist and adjust the sails. Obviously none are exactly complicated compared to replacing the wrist pin in a rod.

Time to get you some basic books so you know what a yardarm might be (actually don't use'm any more, they're on old clipper ships or square riggers). Sheet, oddly enough is a line (rope) that you use to adjust the angle of the sail to the wind. Modern boats with a Bermuda rig (the triangular shaped sails you see on almost all modern yachts) have one sheet. Old ships with square sails might have three. If the helmsman (guy driving the boat) got really off course and got the wind behind the sails then everything would be all screwed up and require a lot of sorting out to get the ship and sails back where they should be. So getting the wind behind the sails would take a lot of inattention (like what may happen with a drunken sailor behind the wheel). So, three sheets in the wind.

wow mind boggling info there.never would have guessed a sheet was a line. guess a basic book is in order. any recommendations?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by scoobert

wow mind boggling info there.never would have guessed a sheet was a line. guess a basic book is in order. any recommendations?

Well there are so many and it has been so long not sure if I can remember a book that starts out that basic.

You definitely need a copy of Chapman Piloting and Seamanship. That is pretty basic but also covers a lot of the more advanced stuff. Great book to cover maintenance and repairs: engine, electrical, pumps, rig, refrigeration and pretty much anything power or sail get Nigel Calder's book.

Those two alone will keep you busy for a few weeks.

Skip

[scoobert]

just read this.
Learn to Sail - How to Sail a Small Sailboat
seems to be all the basics. is it best to learn on one of those small boats first?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by scoobert

just read this.
Learn to Sail - How to Sail a Small Sailboat
seems to be all the basics. is it best to learn on one of those small boats first?

Learning to sail on a small boat, in the opinion of many, is the best way to learn. On a small boat everything that happens, every adjustment to the sails, change in the wind, shift in weight, change in course, you can see and feel the effects immediately. On a larger boat with the weight, size, intertia, it is not nearly as obvious. Also, the techniques are pretty much the same, use the same lines to control the sails, use the same methods to trim the sails, etc.

[Bash]

1. If you're serious about making passages in a trawler, forget about twin-engine boats.
2. If you're serious about buying a boat in the 42-48' range, forget about E-Bay.
3. If you're serious about the DeFever you found, wait until diesel hits $5.00 per gallon this summer, and you'll be able to pick that boat up for half as much.

Let's do a little math. 900 gallons x $5.00 per gallon = $4,500. That's the cost of a fill-up. With that boat, running both engines, you'll be consuming a bit more than 100 gallons per day. Still doing the math? We're talking $500 per day to run that boat next summer, and that's just fuel costs. Load that boat up with a year's supply of food for you and your dogs, and you're going to be lucky to get it around the block before you start looking for a fuel station.

Reality time: there is NO WAY that boat has an 1,800 nm range. If those engines run 2gph apiece you'll be lucky, and on that boat you'll probably be running your genset most of the time you're underway. Figure, if you go really slow, you might be able to average 4.5gph. At that burn rate, the tanks will be dry after 1,600 nm. This means that you should actually figure no more than 1,200 nms between fuel stops. This is assuming you never push the boat past 8 knots, at which point your fuel will disappear at a much faster rate.

This may be why some forum members aren't taking your quest seriously.