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View Poll Results: I would rather...
Live in civilization 13 19.40%
Live in the wilderness 26 38.81%
Live on a deserted island 22 32.84%
Undecided 6 8.96%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28-10-2010, 07:26   #46
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I have lived in both the concret jungle of Los Angeles, and in wilderness.

Give me wilderness every time.
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Old 28-10-2010, 11:49   #47
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Here are some facts written up at the University of Waterloo, with footnoted references. Mowat studied Arts at the U of T, not biology. He worked under a biologist in the NWT, but got fired because of a his poor scientific protocol and work ethic.

I said he was a good writer, but for anyone to suggest that his work remotely reflects anything scientific would surprise those who understand what peer reviewed science really is.
"
The next summer Mowat took his second field trip to the Keewatin area, this time as a federal-government employee. Again he was an assistant, this time to his friend Any Lawrie who had just obtained his Master’s degree in Biology. They were hired to gather information on the caribou and their migration habits. Mowat was also assigned to study the patterns of wolves in the area. However, Mowat’s research fell far short of the program’s expectations. A longing for his wife (whom he had just married the previous December) invaded much of his thoughts, and his work suffered the consequences (Goddard 50). Of the 400 hours Mowat intended to spend in den observations, only about 195 were logged. In August, Mowat took his first opportunity to return to Toronto to save his marriage, and didn’t return until September. His wife came with him (Goddard 54). From this point on Mowat concentrated more on efforts with his wife than his research. He was eventually fired because of insufficient investigation and the high cost to the Northwest Territories Administration (Goddard 54). "

The article seems more in support of my response then your assertion. A bachelor of arts degree doesn't preclude studying biology and at one time was a frequent precursor to a masters in a chosen major. The article seems to imply he was considering a career in biology but decided persue writing instead.

To suggest that you know more about wolves them he did doesn't seem supported. He spent quite a bit of time in the north and while he may not have been any good at it he did study wolves. Your comment on moose would seem to be a non sequitor since moose weren't found in the artic where Never Cry Wolf is set, at that time at least. His claim in the book is simply that the prevailing attitude that wolves were the factor responsible for the declining population of caribou was false. That question may not have been answered and there is nothing in the cited article either way on the subject. The major preditors have always been blamed by man for competing with us.

Perhaps ironically the relationship between moose and wolves is affecting the caribou in the north now that climate change is bringing milder temperature and earlier springs. As moose move north timber wolves are following and they find the caribou an easier target then moose but in addition deer moving north bring diseases not experienced before and calves are no longer being born when the spring first brings a burst of life to the north. Perhaps he would write a different book now though I imagine he would still be championing the natural world.
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Old 28-10-2010, 16:55   #48
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By your logic then we (humanity) would not have made it out of the trees and into our boats, comfy houses, and fast moving cars.

I'm about ready to take my chances against starvation, infections, and other such likes.
Please note the very fleeting fact that what was 'humanity' when our species was leaving the trees was very far from what it is today. It was not 'us' that made it, it was 'them'. If we were to be thrown back into the trees, we would not make it again. It is a one way road, my friend.

Do yourself a favour and go to Australia or PNG - have a look at how the people who live in the wild look (let alone act). Do you really believe you are anything like them?

Anyway, go ahead and take your chances. I will bet on your failure.

b.
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Old 28-10-2010, 17:38   #49
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Has anyone ever had a thread (which would be an spin off of this) "prepping your boat for the collapse of civilization" Something that really isn't that far fetched. To have a boat that is totally self sufficient and know how to and have tools and parts to be able to fix everything....hmm sounds like if our culture crashes a well prepared boat owner set up for blue water cruising would be just about set anyway....at least alot better off than the rest of the civilzed world
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Old 28-10-2010, 17:41   #50
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The big problem for nearly anybody would be the boredom (no TV, no beer, no nothing to entertain the spoiled mind).

And then would come some pangs of consciousness: 'oh by G., I am not working, I am not saving for my retirement, I want to have babies (with whom - with the monkey?), I am not attending the wholly mess ...'.

No, really, I think it is an academic discussion really.

barnie
I have lived on the fringes many times and I did not find the above a concern. One factor might be that I spent a lot of time around my grandparents who enjoyed a very simple way of life. The other is that back in the days all you had to do was give me a fishing rod and a surfboard and there were not enough hours left in the day. I can vividly remember when I finally got my own house a mate wanted to swap me a TV for one of my surfboards. It was like “why do I need that bloody thing?” .

Now I am sitting around in a house with an even bigger TV and surround system I am seriously bored senseless most of the time and my feet are itching.


Even academically using a statistical study you are bound to find other “outliers” who could live without most of the complications of civilisation?
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Old 28-10-2010, 17:43   #51
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Has anyone ever had a thread (which would be an spin off of this) "prepping your boat for the collapse of civilization" Something that really isn't that far fetched.
Yes, and I was surprised how many people on this forum are preparing for the same. When I was younger I ran with a few older mates who had a similar idea, but land based. Those were fun days. Now my boat is my survival capsule!

(Hey, I had better hit the library so I can check out the guide book for my weekend adventure. After might be a good time for a spear so I have some fish/protein for dinner and barter)
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Old 28-10-2010, 19:00   #52
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Please note the very fleeting fact that what was 'humanity' when our species was leaving the trees was very far from what it is today. It was not 'us' that made it, it was 'them'. If we were to be thrown back into the trees, we would not make it again. It is a one way road, my friend.

Do yourself a favour and go to Australia or PNG - have a look at how the people who live in the wild look (let alone act). Do you really believe you are anything like them?

Anyway, go ahead and take your chances. I will bet on your failure.

b.
Jared Diamond has made this same argument in "Guns, Germs, and Steel."

Jared Diamond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 28-10-2010, 19:02   #53
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Has anyone ever had a thread (which would be an spin off of this) "prepping your boat for the collapse of civilization" Something that really isn't that far fetched. To have a boat that is totally self sufficient and know how to and have tools and parts to be able to fix everything....hmm sounds like if our culture crashes a well prepared boat owner set up for blue water cruising would be just about set anyway....at least alot better off than the rest of the civilzed world
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...way-35725.html
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Old 28-10-2010, 19:42   #54
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That could keep one reading for a while. Whew!
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Old 28-10-2010, 19:53   #55
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Jared Diamond has made this same argument in "Guns, Germs, and Steel."
National Geographic did a show on his theme and it is quite good. You can probably download it if you have a torrent access system on your computer.
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Old 28-10-2010, 21:37   #56
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Call of the Wild

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If I had to choose I would take the wild but since I don't I'll take both. They're both a little hard to find though so my experience has been in accepting approximations. Here in Canada we have more so called wilderness then most nations but not much is truly wild unless it's also reasonable uninhabitable or extremely difficult to reach. Civilization? That seems to fall apart too easily to be sure of.
I have a recurring dream of a January night with a full moon, stern tied in Princess Louisa with a foot of snow on the foredeck and the whole place to myself.
That would be wild enough.

Todd
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Old 28-10-2010, 22:33   #57
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I grew up in San Diego. I hate big citys and so called Civilization..
But, i LOVE being able to get anything you want when you want it..
Like Good rolled tacos.
Montana doesnt know What good mexican food really is.. :-/
Im confused..:-(
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Old 28-10-2010, 22:58   #58
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I grew up in the mountains of Northern California (Very Northern). I moved to the city to go to college. After college I worked near Portland Or. for a while and then decided I couldn't live in the city. I'm back in the mountains of Northern California. It takes a 45 minute drive to get to the nearest town with a store. Its peaceful and quiet.

Oh yeah We make our own Ice cream using wild black berries. Better than anything you will find in a store.

So my vote is for the wilderness.

Scott
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Old 28-10-2010, 23:31   #59
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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
The big problem for nearly anybody would be the boredom (no TV, no beer, no nothing to entertain the spoiled mind).

And then would come some pangs of consciousness: 'oh by G., I am not working, I am not saving for my retirement, I want to have babies (with whom - with the monkey?), I am not attending the wholly mess ...'.

No, really, I think it is an academic discussion really.

barnie

Barnie... Some one once said that bored people are boring.

And thanks to Satellite, you can have internet just about any where.

And living out here (Klamath National Forest) I am pretty much retired or at least semiretired (at 35). We don't need a lot of money for all of the things you "civilized" folk do. I work when I want to and take time off when I want to.
I personally find enjoyment in hiking to the top of a mountain and taking in the view. Or taking a hike through the forest during different seasons.
But I also have to say that this simple life style has left me a little short on cash for the sail boat.

Scott
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Old 29-10-2010, 00:56   #60
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Those who have been able to develop the mindset that frees them of the constrictions of modern society have often given up the part that would allow them to make money to get the boat...while those that can afford the boat would rather retain the trappings of our culture. Interesting paradox
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