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Old 23-09-2009, 07:05   #31
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I´m just glad in that respect that I sail under uk regs. Or lack of them.

From BBC news website.

But James Stevens, training manager for the Royal Yachting Association, said according to the marine accident rate, the UK had a better safety record than many European countries where legislation is in place.
"Very few people take to the sea without any training, they're actually quite sensible. They understand they are not just putting themselves at risk but the investment in their boat.
"They know the sea's dangerous and they don't really need the government to tell them."
The Ministry of Transport told the programme there were no plans for legislation. For the size of the UK population, it said accident rates appeared low, but the Marine and Coastguard Agency is continuing research to quantify risks. (end)
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Old 23-09-2009, 07:11   #32
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The advantage of the PCOC is that it at least exposes a person to some of the basic issues in boating. It will help some people develop a habit of learning and expanding their skills.

Rolling out a new requirement is always hard to know what to do with grandfathering existing experience. In the long term, that is not a problem since everyone will acquire it early in their boating life.
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Old 23-09-2009, 08:07   #33
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1. Require license - In theory everyone then knows the rules except scofflaws
2. Screw Up - You can't stop stupid - lose license
3. Boat without license - You can't stop stupid
4. Go to jail, pay fines, cancel insurance, can't get financing, park cigarette boat

Proper licensing works. It is sort of crazy to focus on the exceptions.

As noted, that thinking leads to no license for cars, no license for airplanes, no license for practicing medicine...
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Old 23-09-2009, 08:42   #34
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1. Require license - In theory everyone then knows the rules except scofflaws
2. Screw Up - You can't stop stupid - lose license
3. Boat without license - You can't stop stupid
4. Go to jail, pay fines, cancel insurance, can't get financing, park cigarette boat

Proper licensing works. It is sort of crazy to focus on the exceptions.

As noted, that thinking leads to no license for cars, no license for airplanes, no license for practicing medicine...

I don't think those analogies work Ex.
A license to operate an airplane comes with lot of schooling and the ability to show an instructor, through flight hours and ability, you really learned how to fly and are qualified for that license. A license to practice medicine comes with years of prior schooling and again an exam that even then many don't pass the first time around. Granting a boating license to a person who can answer 15 questions or so by reading a 20 odd page book is a joke. It will not slow down the reckless activity seen on the water these days one iota. Getting a drivers license is easy though, but have you been on a major roadway lately? What keeps most drivers in line with the law is enforcement and real penalties. We don't need yet another license test and more laws. We, as in most reckless outside the law behavior found anywhere, just need the current laws enforced more effectivly.
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Old 23-09-2009, 09:03   #35
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The keywords are "proper licensing." I do not see any validity in a 15 question boater safety course.

I failed the Singapore written the first time around by one question. I studied hard for it and took it seriously. You are only allowed to miss 3 questions. I only missed one the second time. I guess on average I passed twice.

Thye written covers rules of the road, signals, navigation, Singapore waters geography, safety etc.

After the written was an on the water practical followed by an oral exam.

All in all pretty rigorous. Singapore enacted licensing for operation of all powered vessels after a few fatal accidents and it has worked.
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Old 23-09-2009, 09:04   #36
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The CPSS does not, to the best of my knowledge, have on water assessments or courses. I too am a CYA instructor. IMHO, Canada missed the mark when they chose the PCOC - rather than providing fund to CPSS, CYA or some other national boating organization to provide valid, high quality testing which would ensure that some of the idiots I see daily on the water actually learned something.
When you have a test that can be taken online - in other words, with someone looking over your shoulder giving you the answers - I question the validity of the card.
otoh, it has reduced the number of kids bombing about in PWCs, which is all to the good.
FWIW!
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Old 23-09-2009, 10:03   #37
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Just curious - in what way? I am always looking for ways to improve my practice, both as a sailor and an instructor.

I do know we get sloppy in our language. I was taken to task for calling aids to navigation "markers" by a CYA instructor evaluator who was also a Master.

Jack
I think that CYA schools could listen to my comments instead of just brushing them off. I take it seriously enough that if I do get another certificate, besides the bad joke that is PCOC: it will not be through CYA.

ISPA is more carefully organised and so is RYA.

For my own interest I got 'Le Course de Glénans' to keep me out of mischief during the colder months. Another perspective always sharpens the mind.
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Old 23-09-2009, 11:28   #38
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The keywords are "proper licensing." I do not see any validity in a 15 question boater safety course.

I failed the Singapore written the first time around by one question. I studied hard for it and took it seriously. You are only allowed to miss 3 questions. I only missed one the second time. I guess on average I passed twice.

Thye written covers rules of the road, signals, navigation, Singapore waters geography, safety etc.

After the written was an on the water practical followed by an oral exam.

All in all pretty rigorous. Singapore enacted licensing for operation of all powered vessels after a few fatal accidents and it has worked.

Exactly, proper licensing. Thing is, no government agency is going to require such stringent rigorous requirements for the average Joe boater here. Just isn't going to happen. Too much at stake. What we will get is the 15 question type test so all boaters can pass it and it will not solve the reckless boater issue. It is a matter of money. Not just the money the government will collect from fees. But an entire marine industry that knows full well that stringent courses and tests to pass an exam for a basic boaters license would mean their business would suffer far too much by eliminating a very large percentage of casual boaters. Again, better enforcement of the existing laws is the only real answer that can work. It only takes a fine or two before most people start taking the issue of their own boater education a bit more serious.
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Old 23-09-2009, 11:40   #39
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Was witness to a licenced captain who used to bounce around the marina in his twin screw trawler. He had hit every boat within 3 slips of him. Don't have to worry about meeting him on the water. The coastgtuard heard his mayday. He and girlfriend were abandoning ship due to fire in engine room. The coastguard found boat at anchor, the onboard extinguisher had put out fire. He and girlfriend were found dead from exposure, her with life preserver put on backwards. A license doesn't guarantee common sense. Or a clear head in times of stress. My vote is respond to complaints vigorously and require violators licensing and/or ban frequent violators from the water. Leave those of us who show constraint, have studied safe boating practices and apply them alone. Again we have the bureaucrats who want all to pay for the actions of the negliglent few.
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Old 24-09-2009, 00:24   #40
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forsailbyowner,
OMG where did that happen. Really they drown while abondoning ship while at anchor. Thats totall horrible for them, I enjoy drinking but they had to be on more than just alcohol.
And yesssss inforce laws on the books and look out for yourself and your neighbors instead of another large bureaucracy that will make more red tape and if lucky a small dent in on the water accidents.
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Old 24-09-2009, 02:44   #41
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Yes happened in Tampa bay. Never saw guy drinking ever, lived in same marina at time.
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Old 24-09-2009, 08:29   #42
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[QUOTE=knottybuoyz;335615]I have a Pleasure Craft Operator Card (PCOC) issued by the Canadian Power and Sail Squadron (CPSS) therefore I can legally operate my boat in Canadian Waters. The PCOC is not a license.

The Office of Boating Safety (OBS) which is currently part of Transport Canada (TC) used to be within the Search & Rescue directorate of Coast Guard (CCG) (where I work).

The whole process came about during extended discussions between Gov't (DFO & TC) and the marine industry Canadian Marine Advisory Council (CMAC) in the early-mid 90's. Gov't marine regulators at the time (TC & CCG OBS) as well as many marine industries (both commercial and pleasure craft related) saw the need for operator training and orientation especially for younger operators. This was accellerated by a number of high profile incidents of very young operators of high powered sport boats & PWC's which resulted in the loss of life.

The Gov't regulators were pushing hard for a true "licensing system" such as those for motor vehicles. Industry pushed back even harder for "less involvement" in recreational boating by Gov't. The Gov't regulators bowed to the pressure and a hybrid Gov't mandated curriculum & testing regime and private industry course provider/examiners system was established. The initial target was the younger operators and restrictions on age/horsepower for various types of pleasure craft. The system although workable was obviously flawed in many respects. What it did do was provide a forum for the dissemination of boating safety related material to a wider audience of boat operators. That in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing."

There have been many marine incidents caused by unknowledgeable boaters, but the incidents which most profoundly brought things to a head, as I recall, were the incident of a boater crossing the path of a B.C. ferry, in Horseshoe Bay, and the other being the incident involving the "Arctic Taglu", a self-propelled barge with a pleasure vessel, in Active Pass, B.C. . There have been boaters whom have crossed between tug & tows - with disasterous results - and many incidents involving pleasure craft each year. boat operators are like vehicle drivers, all of us think we know. Yes, it P.O.s me that 8 months at the Coast Guard College, doing an MTR - now MCTSO - program (Abinitio 93), plus decades of sailing is not satisfactory. Still, no big deal, I'm sure that I can use a brush-up on my ColRegs, anyway.
Mike
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Old 24-09-2009, 08:39   #43
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After my last post, I realized that the discussion was more a consideration of the value of the PCOC exam. No, I don't believe that it should be offered on-line and I believe that there should be an oral exam for ship's lights, chart/tide book reading & aids to navigation. Still, it's a start?
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Old 24-09-2009, 09:36   #44
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Yes, it P.O.s me that 8 months at the Coast Guard College, doing an MTR - now MCTSO - program (Abinitio 93), plus decades of sailing is not satisfactory. Still, no big deal, I'm sure that I can use a brush-up on my ColRegs, anyway.
Mike
If you hold any certificate on the List of Certificates of Competency, Training Certificates and other Equivalencies as Proof of Competency when Operating a Pleasure Craft, you already meet the requirements of the Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations – you just need to make sure you carry your certificate on board. Proof of certification may include original documentation or a copy of the certificate.


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