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Old 22-09-2009, 14:01   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Wade View Post
Thanks, Knotty, for your summary...

I found a few insanities in otherwise useful CYA courses in BC: We were invited to plot a course from a light on Bowen Is to a bouy off Nanaimo Harbour. Illegal, immoral and criminally insane: to plot a course from 50' up a cliff directly to a steel bouy.

One other insanity was calling a course a heading. We end up not knowing what either word mean.

The CYA concept is a good beginning. Power Squadron and ISPA seem better. They would all be much more useful if they would lower barriers against professional sailors and keep improving courses in a more professional direction, too. Otherwise the yachtmasters certificates are already well along, when overseen by professionals.

Although I did learn a lot from racing sailors, it was when I was lucky enough to take a voyage or two with deep sea certified mariners who happened to be sailors, too, that I was able to make real progress. Would you take-off with a pilot who had taught themselves to fly and navigate?
I think you are referring to the CYA Coastal Nav exam using 3463. I had a hand in writing the one for 3462. We used the buoys and lights as starting points to make life a little easier. As both a CYA and ISPA costal nav instructor, I tell students that they should never use an aid to navigation as a target.

As to course and heading, Bowditch is a good reference; they are different.

Quote:
course, n. The direction in which a vessel is steered or intended to be
steered, expressed as angular distance from north, usually from
000 at north, clockwise through 360. Strictly, the term applies to
direction through the water, not the direction intended to be made
good over the ground. The course is often designated as true, magnetic,
compass, or grid as the reference direction is true, magnetic
compass, or grid north, respectively. TRACK MADE GOOD is the
single resultant direction from the point of departure to point of arrival
at any given time. The use of this term to indicate a single resultant
direction is preferred to the use of the misnomer course
made good. A course line is a line, as drawn on a chart, extending
in the direction of a course. See also COURSE ANGLE, COURSE
OF ADVANCE, COURSE OVER GROUND. HEADING.
TRACK.
Quote:
heading, n. The horizontal direction in which a ship actually points or
heads at any instant, expressed in angular units from a reference direction,
usually from 000 at the reference direction clockwise
through 360. Heading is often designated as true, magnetic, compass,
or grid. Heading should not be confused with COURSE,
which is the intended direction of movement through the water. At
a specific instant the heading may or may not coincide with the
course. The heading of a ship is also called SHIP’S HEAD.
Jack
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Old 22-09-2009, 14:32   #17
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The Pleasure Craft Operator Card is a joke and a scam. I took the test while at the CNE in 2003. The questions were very simple and probably were not relavant to most people taking the test. It covered only the most basic rules of the road and saftey items. You write the test for free and then if you pass, pay your $45.00. It is so simple that it is almost meaningless. As far as I am concerned it is only a way of making money for the private companies that administrate the test.

I do not have a problem with testing but only with a card that is a joke when you read whats on it.

"This card holder is competent to operate a pleasure craft as indicated in the Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations for the Canada Shipping Act."

Transport Canada Website defines tat section as follows.

Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations

Amendments made under the CSA to the Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations have resulted in stricter requirements for the Boating Safety Test. This includes new restrictions on, and new requirements for, pleasure craft operators. Further amendments to these Regulations will include a new accreditation framework for private sector course providers, which will standardize the training for, and administration of, the Boating Safety Test. This will help protect the health and well-being of individuals and promote greater safety on Canada's waterways.


In otherwords, take a useless test and you are competent to operate most vessels according to the Canada Shipping Act.

I consider the years of sailing and racing with my father endowed me with my seamanship and the courses I took with the Power Squadron started me on a firm grasp of navigation. And every year I learn something new.

Yes I have my PCOC and I resent it.
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Old 22-09-2009, 14:35   #18
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Screening and IQ testing should also be introduced, but that will never happen...
Strongly agree but why stop there? I'm thinking executives and politicians would be legitimate targets. I'm certain there are others...
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Old 22-09-2009, 15:59   #19
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The test is very easy. There is a need to have strickter licencing. I have had too many power boaters bearing down on me at full speed full of partiers to feel safe.

Make the test harder and have a practical portion!
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:15   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I think you are referring to the CYA Coastal Nav exam using 3463. I had a hand in writing the one for 3462......

As to course and heading, Bowditch is a good reference; they are different.

Jack
I expected you, and many more Sailing Forums 's to know the answers, Jack, and really did not expect the CYA to start out perfect. I wish they could be more progressive, though. They should have been able to catch up with your level of proficiency after 25 ~ 30 years.
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:26   #21
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I wish they could be more progressive, though.
Just curious - in what way? I am always looking for ways to improve my practice, both as a sailor and an instructor.

I do know we get sloppy in our language. I was taken to task for calling aids to navigation "markers" by a CYA instructor evaluator who was also a Master.

Jack
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:40   #22
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WRT the PCOC.

A buddy of mine took me fishing in his tin boat one day, as we exited the river, he asked me what those red and green things were in the water and did he need to do anything about them? I, being rather taken aback, asked him if he had not gotten his PCOC card, to which he replied he had. He then told me that "he did it online" and actually, it was his brother who took the test for him. He had absolutely no clue what the navigation markers meant and even less idea about who had the right of way in any given situation. That makes the PCOC a joke in my book.

Now, after 5 people jumped into rapids and managed to kill themselves this summer, they are wanting us to wear PFDs when in a boat. I can't figure how these two things are related. But that is government in the great white north.
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:44   #23
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Let's face it, these idiots that get into a cigarette boat and drive around at 60mph and then T bone someone have Driver's licenses already. At 60 mph, if they were going to be unsafe drivers, regardless of land or sea, they are going to be unsafe drivers. No marine couse confusing them with red right returning, compasses, right of way and headings is going to help..... it's just a form of taxation....
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:45   #24
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As a professional boating instructor, I agree that a great many people have PCOCs that should not. I do not use online cards, pay-if-you-pass, or similar approaches. I also agree that a practical component would be valuable. I continue to see a great deal of stupidity on the water.

Or maybe - I am just trying to make a buck or a loonie.

Jack
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Old 22-09-2009, 16:54   #25
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What next start licensing bicyclest or rollerbalders. There are more deaths each year for bicyclers than vehicle deaths per a mile traveled. So statisicly thats more dangerous.
If your scared the couch is your best option. What is it that make people always think that inviting any type of government deaper and deaper into our lives is going to make us safer. Stop, we are humans, not sheep that need to be hearded and cared for, thats why alot of us became sailors, so we could be free and independent of all the shore side B.S.
Thanks I'll get of my box.
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Old 22-09-2009, 22:52   #26
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A bit of resentment here. LOL True the PCOC is hardly a high standard of competency, especially when someone else can write it online for you, so lets just throw it out. Wait, I know people that have gotten licenses by someone else posing as them and taking the test. Doctors with fake degrees, actually operating. Its ok I trust him, he has experience even if he has no education.

Solution: throw out all licensing. I trust the pilot is competent, after all he is in the pilots seat, he must know what he is doing. Does it matter if my surgeon never graduated, not really, he can use a knife. This is ludicrous of course.

THE PCOC will not make you competent, but then I know drivers that aren't competent too. Its not fool proof, but if you f* up and have a PCOC then maybe you can be fined, held responsible, pay for damages as your PCOC says you know the basics, so if you break the rules, ignorance is no longer an excuse.

Quote:
]Stop, we are humans, not sheep that need to be hearded and cared for, thats why alot of us became sailors, so we could be free and independent of all the shore side B.S.
Free and independent as long as you don't infringe on my freedoms. Buzzing past me at 60kph in your PWC making a big wake. Let me pull out my 303 and blow a hole in your hull. Just exercising my freedom with no regulations! LOL


CYA-provides basic/intermediate/advanced instruction THEN you practice practice practice and become (hopefully) competent. Just like a car driving school, learn the basics, rules of the road and then with years of practice you become a good driver hahahahahahahahahahahahahah ROFLMAO sorry I couldn't keep a straight face for that one. 12 years professional driver.

Just my take on it.

BTW I work now in an industry that is slowly becoming regulated. However, they do allow for grandfather. Its not automatic. You register online, give examples of your competency (ie. presented over 100 life skills workshops....200 clients with individual coaching....took 2 day course in ethics...) which supports your abilities. NO FEES-just document your skills with actual experience situations.
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Old 22-09-2009, 23:51   #27
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I do believe that you can be fined and will be if you f*&^ up with or with out a license, and if you are boating as some sort of Captain for commercial purpose i.e. having passangers, carrying dangerous cargo, ect..... then license the hell out of em'. But to say that anyone that is involved in an activity that can harm or damage property in some small percenage is just asinine. In 2008 there were nearly 5000 accidents some 700 deaths and all that carnage came out some 13 million regestered US boats(not sure but I dont think they took into account all the out of country traffic and which ones were on inland lakes). Not a big number for say snow skiing accidents (7 injuries per 1000 visitors) or any other sport you can do that may injure yourself or someone else. If ruffly 1 out of 100 boaters were injured as the skiiers are none of us could afford insurance and probbably would not want to be involved in this type of acctivity. As far as PWC's are concerned we all hate em' (really how many of us CF members are strictly or largly PWC operators), were mostly rag boaters. That type of broad regulation and controll is dangours to say the least(1984 comes to mind). Do what you will with your gun(303) not wanting to start another damn gun debate!!! Please spar us that everyone. HA LOL.

As said in my previous post if your scared the couch and the latest episod of Sex and the City is what I would prescribe.

So just let sailing be my one thing that I can do and not be interfering with someone else and let no one else interfer with me. Ladys are still invited to interfer with me during my sail time though.
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Old 23-09-2009, 02:12   #28
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Instruction Needed

I have to disagree with Irwin 325. I instruct for the CPSS, and have taken many boating courses both "academic" and practical aspects. The incompetency that I witness on the waters regularly tells me that something needs to be done or there will be more accidents and injuries on the water. The PCOC in Canada is a first step, but it is a joke and misses the mark badly.
I have witnessed many boaters who do not know or understand the Collision Regs. I had a power boater this year steer right at us (40 to 50 foot boat) at a speed of about 20 knots and deliberately cut across our bow at a distance of about 15 feet (we had stopped to try to avoid a collision). A boat dragged anchor into my boat (I was tied to a mooring buoy) in about 8 knots of wind. At one anchorage this summer, I watched 6 boats come in and anchor, only one boat did it correctly!!
When the actions of others (and their lack of knowledge) impact other people's safety and the safety of their property, then regulations are required. After all, I need a pilot's license to fly or a driver's licence to drive a car. This only makes common sense. Even with regulations and licenses it does not guarantee that there will be no problems, but at least people with licenses at one time had the knowledge (and skills).
Just my opinion,
Tom
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Old 23-09-2009, 05:49   #29
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that CPSS offers courses / assessment to determine if someone can actually apply the skills on the water.
You're right Jack. I was more alluding to the issue with insurers in my neck of the woods (St. Lawrence River & Great Lakes). I've been told by them the only courses they recognize (and give credit for) are the advanced CPSS stuff (just looked at their site and their course list has changed) but it used to be the "Boat Pro" course (next step up from their PCOC certification). Again you're right I don't believe any of their training requires an on-water practical testing prior to certification.
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Old 23-09-2009, 06:21   #30
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C'mon Guys,

We all know what kind of law is needed.

A law where I don't need to be tested or carry a license, but just thinking about what we've witnessed and the dings others put in my boat, that same law should ensure all others take a test to prove their competence.

Can't be that hard to draft, surely?

JOHN
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