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Old 23-05-2011, 13:46   #31
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
I've found in small boats if you stay in shallow water you are unlikely to be run over by anything bigger than you are.
Exactly. Like PWCs, these things draw a few inches of water. Why are they even in the channel? Unless they're crossing it, they're just causing headaches for everyone else.
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Old 23-05-2011, 13:55   #32
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

just dont run me over in my kayak tender to my bird....please......my yak is red.
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Old 23-05-2011, 14:13   #33
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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But then there's no mention of anything but sailing an power vessels in the actual rules about right of way! Darn it. That said, even if you do have the right of way, you're not allowed to hit any other vessel. You have to take action to avoid a collision once it's apparent the other skipper won't: "When, from any cause, the vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision."
For the life of me, I can't find in the regulations any mention of the rights of manually-driven vessels versus sail or engine-powered craft. Thus, there is no privelege given to manually-driven vessels except perhaps they would have the right-of-way if being overtaken. So, it would appear that you kayakers, canoeist, and similar sorts need to keep out of others' way. That would seem to be the unspoken intent of the rules.

I would tend to treat such craft as engine-powered craft, however. Still, they should keep an eye out or chance running into 14 tons of steel.
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Old 23-05-2011, 14:35   #34
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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From the few details I've read about the Lake George case, .... As it is now, a kayak is due the same rights of way as a piece of driftwood; no status at all and therefore not afforded any right of way. Of course, this has stirred up a lot of controversy because canoes and kayaks are abundant around here on lakes and rivers. Whether this is just a NY phenomenon, I don't know but if NY law is based common statutes, it could be an issue elsewhere.
USCG navigation rules provide NO priveleges to manually-powered vessels. It would seem every other type of boat would be stand-on vessels, so kayakers are to stay out of the way of sailing and motor craft. Verstehen Sie?
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Old 23-05-2011, 14:53   #35
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

From the USCG Navigation Center FAQ:
Quote:
Where do Kayaks and Canoes fit into the Navigation Rules? Neither the International nor Inland Navigation Rules address "kayaks" or "canoes" per se, except in regards to "vessels under oars" in Rule 25 regarding lights. One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one, but, ultimately the issue of whom "gives way" would fall to what would be "required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case" (Rule 2).
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Old 23-05-2011, 14:57   #36
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Like I posted in the OP I believe the kayakers have as much right to the water as me. And I consider it reasonable, if not required, that I not run over them. I just wish they would make it a little easier to avoid them.

And where I saw the various groups this weekend I would have to say they were experienced. So the question still is whether they just plain have a death wish! If they do could they take it somewhere else as I don't really want to face the paperwork involved in running them down.
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Old 23-05-2011, 15:07   #37
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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Like I posted in the OP I believe the kayakers have as much right to the water as me. And I consider it reasonable, if not required, that I not run over them. I just wish they would make it a little easier to avoid them.

And where I saw the various groups this weekend I would have to say they were experienced. So the question still is whether they just plain have a death wish! If they do could they take it somewhere else as I don't really want to face the paperwork involved in running them down.
It does seem reasonable not to run them over.

I have wondered at times if some folks don't realize how hard to see they are? Even if they do want to save the environment (those bastards) I doubt they are being deliberately belligerent. A good kayaker can make excellent speed and it can be tough reading their minds (poisoned as they are by good intentions).
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Old 23-05-2011, 15:09   #38
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As an alumni long distance (1300 mile race last year) and open water paddler, I can honestly say that some of the better mariners I have ever met are open water paddlers. How many could handle 6-8 breakers in an 18 footer? Not you crusty circumnavigators, the rest of the cruisers. The issue is that in the last few years the idiot factor in has gone up.

A skilled paddler on a still night can hear an approaching boat by listening to the water well in advance of any visual encounter. IF they have learned to listen! When that happens, just adjust the heading to leave room. Because racing means that sometimes one goes 18-20 hours non-stop, it is prudent to carry enough lights and reflective tape to be very visible. Doing an open water crossing in the fog is dicey at best. The few I have done were with a horn on deck. Then again if the other vessel is sounding their horn and operating at a speed commensurate with their visibility and maneuverability, then it is never a problem. If not, a good paddler will hear the boat and move.

A GOOD open water paddler handles breakers, huge rollers and win vs tide inlets with no problem. Death wish? Hardly, when the only engine is you- one quickly learns how to work waves, currents and eddies.

There is more than one person on this forum who has gone transatlantic in a 28 footer. Is that suicidal or good seamanship? As mentioned earlier the issue is that there some who paddle who just don't think. Not that sailors ever make those mistakes....... Where was that link in the BVI.........

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Old 23-05-2011, 15:10   #39
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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USCG navigation rules provide NO priveleges to manually-powered vessels. It would seem every other type of boat would be stand-on vessels, so kayakers are to stay out of the way of sailing and motor craft. Verstehen Sie?

I verstehen. It was my original point. Comprendez vous?
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Old 23-05-2011, 15:42   #40
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

"One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one ..."

Uhh, how do I tell whether a kayaker is on a port tack or a starboard tack? I believe the above USCG inference doesn't make it. Perhaps the Colregs presume kayakers and such users of stealthy (small, low-silhouetted, noiseless) vessels will use common sense and avoid other vessels.
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Old 23-05-2011, 16:00   #41
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
"One could infer that a "vessel under oars" should be treated as a "sailing vessel" since it is permitted to display the same lights as one ..."

Uhh, how do I tell whether a kayaker is on a port tack or a starboard tack? I believe the above USCG inference doesn't make it. Perhaps the Colregs presume kayakers and such users of stealthy (small, low-silhouetted, noiseless) vessels will use common sense and avoid other vessels.
Counting on people to show common sense is often a low percentage bet. In addition, in this area at least, there are many inexperienced kayakers and they are about as nimble as the aforementioned driftwood. I do everything I can to avoid hitting driftwood.
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Old 23-05-2011, 16:00   #42
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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It does seem reasonable not to run them over.
It's another justification for getting loud horns to tell the "birds" to scatter.

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Old 23-05-2011, 16:07   #43
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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It's another justification for getting loud horns to tell the "birds" to scatter.
Speaking of birds, is that your Coot floating on her own hull?
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Old 23-05-2011, 17:44   #44
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Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

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Speaking of birds, is that your Coot floating on her own hull?
Yes it is. Now, however, it's in the hull of a ship, but I expect it to be placed back in the water May 29.


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Old 23-05-2011, 17:46   #45
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Being sensible...

There seemed to be a time on Sydney Harbour when kayakers thought they could do anything they wanted.

Not so much these days. There seems to be far fewer of them in the main channels, and the ones that are there look to be crossing at right angles. I see a lot of them paddling through moored boats and keeping close to the shore. The ones I've seen at night have had lights.

Another argument for not navigating through moored boats.

They can be very fast, I've paced some at better than 5 knots. At that speed, being so small they can pop up out of nowhere.

I cannot recall seeing a a Sydney Harbour one with out a lifejacket (probably required by law here) and most of the kayaks are bright yellow/orange which makes them a lot easier to see.

I cannot see a right of way issue here. They are always going to be the vulnerable, slow and not especially maneuverable vessel so to me they have absolute right of way.
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