Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-05-2011, 00:56   #136
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,761
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevP
Sail on a kayak (if the paddle is not being used) is a sailing vessel.
Sweep on a sailboat (if sails are not hoisted) is a vessel under oars.
The difficult one is sails set plus the use of sweep/paddle. Comes back to what you classify a vessel under oars as.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
Yeah, that was really my point. I don't think the Colregs were intented to cover all situations.
Nah, that one's not hard. If you're using two forms of propulsion, you are classified as the lesser privileged of the two. So a kayak with sails AND oars out is a sailboat. Just like a sailboat motorsailing is a motor boat, for purposes of COLREGS.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 01:05   #137
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,761
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevP
Can you help me understand why a court would not recognise this interpretation? Here in NZ at least, courts are supposed to take a strictly literal interpretation of any statutes or regulations. Are you able to show a more authoritative definition of "machinery" or other case or regulation that contradicts the Oxford definition?

Any lawyers out there that can clear up my confusion?


I spent four years at Cal Maritime and had the rules pretty much memorized along with numerous classes going over rule interpretations, incidents and their subsequent rulings.

25 years later I could not tell you exactly why, but human powered vessels are NOT power driven vessels. To me this is just common sense if not anything else given the rules are partially written to give less maneuverable vessels rights over more maneuverable vessels.

The people who write the Oxford Dictionary are not the ones who define nor interpret maritime law. Maritime and admiralty law has its own sometimes unique set of definitions that are not found anywhere else.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.




Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
I spent four years at Cal Maritime and had the rules pretty much memorized along with numerous classes going over rule interpretations, incidents and their subsequent rulings.

25 years later I could not tell you exactly why, but human powered vessels are NOT power driven vessels. To me this is just common sense if not anything else given the rules are partially written to give less maneuverable vessels rights over more maneuverable vessels.

The people who write the Oxford Dictionary are not the ones who define nor interpret maritime law. Maritime and admiralty law has its own sometimes unique set of definitions that are not found anywhere else.

Oars are oars, and machinery means steam or internal combustion or electric engines. There is no doubt about this -- human powered vessels are definitely not power driven vessels.

No where in the world, including NZ, is there any such idea of the "literal meaning of statutes". It's one of the fundamental principles of interpreting laws, going back to the Romans, that the key issue is the intention of the lawgiver. The text is just an instrument for communicating this intention. If it's not clear from the text, then courts try to discern the intention behind the text. It's the only way to interpret a law.

Same principle applies in interpreting contracts -- what was the intention of the parties?

For anyone actually interested in it, here's a great summary of what legal reasoning and interpretation is all about: Interpretation and Coherence in Legal Reasoning (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 02:20   #138
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

What!!

Manually-propelled vessels have preference over all other craft? That is senseless. They have no special rights and should consider themselves driftwood. I haven't seen anyone cite Colregs stating such vessels have priveleges. We all need to be aware of each other and avoid collision. Since almost all MP vessels are stealthy, they would be wise to avoid all other craft. And especially and in particular, they display no specific/legal identification and are unlicensed/unregistered, as is every other piece of driftwood.
__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 04:17   #139
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,761
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
What!!

Manually-propelled vessels have preference over all other craft? That is senseless. They have no special rights and should consider themselves driftwood. I haven't seen anyone cite Colregs stating such vessels have priveleges. We all need to be aware of each other and avoid collision. Since almost all MP vessels are stealthy, they would be wise to avoid all other craft. And especially and in particular, they display no specific/legal identification and are unlicensed/unregistered, as is every other piece of driftwood.
I don't think licenses or registration have anything to do with a vessel's status under the COLREGS.

Like many sailors, I was always taught that "Power gives way to Sail which gives way to Oars, but Overtaking gives way to Everybody".

I was surprised to flip through the COLREGS and see that human-powered vessels are not mentioned in the heirarchy of priorities in Rule 18. In fact oars are only mentioned in Rule 25, concerning lights. There is a good discussion about it here: ColRegs - Vessels under oars? - Yachting and Boating World Forums

So although a human-powered vessel is surely a vessel, you seem to be right in that they do not seem to have any specific rights in the COLREGS, contrary to everything I was taught! You learn something every day!! That's what makes CF so great!
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 09:04   #140
Registered User
 
HappySeagull's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.,Canada
Boat: 29'
Posts: 2,395
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
they ARE two independent vessels and marked as such....a barge IS a vessel...
But without the tug it doesn't carry those lights.
It's a single unit or tries to be.
__________________
HappySeagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 09:11   #141
CF Adviser
 
Bash's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: sausalito
Boat: 14 meter sloop
Posts: 7,260
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't think licenses or registration have anything to do with a vessel's status under the COLREGS.

Like many sailors, I was always taught that "Power gives way to Sail which gives way to Oars, but Overtaking gives way to Everybody".

I was surprised to flip through the COLREGS and see that human-powered vessels are not mentioned in the heirarchy of priorities in Rule 18. In fact oars are only mentioned in Rule 25, concerning lights. There is a good discussion about it here: ColRegs - Vessels under oars? - Yachting and Boating World Forums

So although a human-powered vessel is surely a vessel, you seem to be right in that they do not seem to have any specific rights in the COLREGS, contrary to everything I was taught! You learn something every day!! That's what makes CF so great!
I was taught the same thing: "power yields to sail yields to oars, and overtaking yields to everyone." And yes, I was surprised as well to discover that the CORLEGS ignore paddlecraft.
__________________
cruising is entirely about showing up--in boat shoes.
Bash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 09:50   #142
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

And not a single mention of log booms ... what were they thinking?
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 09:56   #143
Registered User
 
HappySeagull's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.,Canada
Boat: 29'
Posts: 2,395
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I don't think licenses or registration have anything to do with a vessel's status under the COLREGS.

Like many sailors, I was always taught that "Power gives way to Sail which gives way to Oars, but Overtaking gives way to Everybody".

I was surprised to flip through the COLREGS and see that human-powered vessels are not mentioned in the heirarchy of priorities in Rule 18. In fact oars are only mentioned in Rule 25, concerning lights. There is a good discussion about it here: ColRegs - Vessels under oars? - Yachting and Boating World Forums

So although a human-powered vessel is surely a vessel, you seem to be right in that they do not seem to have any specific rights in the COLREGS, contrary to everything I was taught! You learn something every day!! That's what makes CF so great!
Dockhead has it.It's the intent.
Oars aren't mentioned because they needn't be. A dinghy with a tiny ob can soon get into maneuvering difficulty as well but has no "privileges"....anyway it's the wrong word.Sailboats and dredges and fishing vessels aren't "privileged" or with "Rights".Better to change the slang to "Encumbered" and "Unable".
It's not that these wouldn't like to sail along in the flow,it's that they can't.But rowboats and kayaks and rowing shells (and -if only!-fast galleys with ballistae and rams!) can.Being a vessel means a proper lookout,even if you have to look over your shoulder to do it.
The encumbrances due to size are the ability to carry gear safely.If it puts life at risk to carry kerosene,battery a full set of running lights on a tower,liferings,etc.etc into the ridiculous...so here,"privilege" is given because it must be.
As to lights and implications thereof,it should be plain that on a kayak,an all round light above the others might be impossible to attach,maintain and a stability hazard as well.And lights themselves put everyone in a low visibility scenario which is a subsection unto itself as to the "rules"
__________________
HappySeagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 10:08   #144
Registered User
 
Capt Phil's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Stateline NV
Boat: Prior boats: Transpac 49; DeFever 54
Posts: 2,749
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

I'm kinda curious if you are under an 'oar whether you pay by the hour or the day... Capt Phil
__________________
Capt Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 10:25   #145
Registered User
 
HappySeagull's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.,Canada
Boat: 29'
Posts: 2,395
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
they ARE two independent vessels and marked as such....a barge IS a vessel...
...and if you were to treat them as such,by sailing between them,you'd see that they are not "independent"!Not at all.
__________________
HappySeagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 10:31   #146
Registered User
 
HappySeagull's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: B.C.,Canada
Boat: 29'
Posts: 2,395
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
And not a single mention of log booms ... what were they thinking?
Because it's not needed.The towboat has towing lights.The logbooms aren't vessels.Or do you infer from these lights that instead of kayaks being barges and sailing vessels ,they can also be logbooms?because the same lights are allowed for each?
__________________
HappySeagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 10:47   #147
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

It was a joke. I think the expectation that everything is going to be covered by Colregs is unreasonable as is the expectation that people on the water are going to do a better job interpreting them them folks in this forum seem able to do. As Mark Pierce suggested, common sense might be a good approach to take.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 12:32   #148
Registered User
 
cwyckham's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: Niagara 35
Posts: 1,870
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce
What!!

Manually-propelled vessels have preference over all other craft? That is senseless. They have no special rights and should consider themselves driftwood. I haven't seen anyone cite Colregs stating such vessels have priveleges. We all need to be aware of each other and avoid collision. Since almost all MP vessels are stealthy, they would be wise to avoid all other craft. And especially and in particular, they display no specific/legal identification and are unlicensed/unregistered, as is every other piece of driftwood.
I agree with your interpretation that they have no special rights. However, they are certainly vessels and so it is illegal to hit them, even if you're in a sailboat. Perfectly legal to hit driftwood, though, so they certainly not driftwood!
__________________
Chris
SailMentor.com - Become the Confident Skipper of Your Own Sailboat
cwyckham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 12:47   #149
Registered User
 
capn_billl's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Houston,Tx
Boat: Maxum 37'
Posts: 1,587
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
while making sure not having a collision is the desired intent...there is this little issue...

Rule 17

(a)
    1. Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.
Under COLREGS ALL vessels have the responsibility to do whatever actions are necessary to avoid a collision. Any action taken should be early and disstinctive enough to be unmistakable to the other vessel.
__________________
capn_billl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-05-2011, 13:15   #150
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: lavallette New Jersey
Boat: Santana 2023 - Impulsive II
Posts: 174
Re: Kayaks and Death Wish

yesterday around 1700 i was under full sail in light fog and there was someone in the middle of the channel on a stand up paddleboard and had the audacity to flip me off for what they thought was coming too close to them which i wasnt.. i cant imagine a power boat cruising at open throttle seeing them at last second would do ..
__________________

__________________
E.L.Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kayaks for Tenders ? otherthan General Sailing Forum 24 24-03-2017 14:57
For Trade: 2 Pelican Kayaks for Sailing Rowboat hummingway Classifieds Archive 0 21-01-2011 00:53
Death on a Passage ? mestrezat Health, Safety & Related Gear 64 19-10-2010 03:26
Kayaks for Cruisers PHIL+MARYANNE Auxiliary Equipment & Dinghy 45 17-02-2010 11:21
For Sale: Two Necky Elaho Kayaks studzbearcat Classifieds Archive 1 03-10-2009 19:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.