I've Had Enough!

[ozskipper]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Yes
To us who are commenting it is cheap.
What part of this can't you understand?

I am trying to make the point that "cheap" is subjective. Particularly when comparing which country is better than the other. And using that alone as an example of a "good country" is poor judgement.

In your post (# 70, page 5 of this thread- where our conversation started). You suggested our pernsioners were eating dog food and getting ripped off on everything they buy. Firstly, I dont know anyone who eats dog food. Secondly, comparing the aus pension to the SEA zip, they are a thousand times better off than being a local in any SEA nation. Thats my point. Its subjective! Roll your eyes again if you need to. Its the facts.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by ozskipper

Firstly, I dont know anyone who eats dog food.

Just because you don't know anyone doesn't mean it doesn't or hasn't happened.
And simple maths (work out pension - rent, utilities, transport, medical, clothes etc) would tell you it's on the cards for many, certainly a poorer quality lifestyle is if relying on the pension alone without owning your own property and other investments.

I look at my own Grandparents, they get by on the pension but I hate to think how they would manage if they had to pay $500 a week rent to live in their house (if they didn't own)

Secondly, comparing the aus pension to the SEA zip, they are a thousand times better off than being a local in any SEA nation.

Yes, my point exactly
A better quality of life awaits if taking your money out of Australia and spending it elsewhere.

Its the facts.

Finally

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by savoir

You still here BillAU ?

How fair dinkum are you ?

You remind me of the butcher's cat.

Yes matey...I'm still around
About as fair dinkum as a caring man can be, in my circumstances
I thought the butcher killed and skinned his cat, then sold it to you as rabbit

G'day Coops, I think I may have found my forwarding address...and “perhaps” a suitable local boat for living aboard once I do some conversions

Well the man said...Always buy your boat where you plan on cruising...So here are a few pictures of the 53' local boat I'm having a mate check-out ...Now we'll see how things work-out...In all departments.
Boat Picture 1


Boat Picture 2


Boat Picture 3


The boat is five years old and should meet my needs, so we'll see how things work out

Bill
Australia

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by BillAU

Yes matey...I'm still around
About as fair dinkum as a caring man can be, in my circumstances
I thought the butcher killed and skinned his cat, then sold it to you as rabbit

G'day Coops, I think I may have found my forwarding address...and “perhaps” a suitable local boat for living aboard once I do some conversions

Well the man said...Always buy your boat where you plan on cruising...So here are a few pictures of the 40' local boat I'm having a mate check-out ...Now we'll see how things work-out...In all departments.
Boat Picture 1


Boat Picture 2


Boat Picture 3


The boat is five years old and should meet my needs, so we'll see how things work out

Bill
Australia

Now I'm really confused.

[rognvald]

This is certainly an interesting discussion since our brothers in Australia are fighting the same fight we are fighting in the U.S. What most people do not understand is that the world is undergoing a transformation from varied forms of Capitalism to One World Order Socialism. . . from rugged individualism to the Nanny State. The mantra is no longer to work hard and pull yourself up by your bootstraps and be responsible for your life and those you love, but rather to be a product of government planning from cradle to grave. It would be unfair to say that the latter scenario does not appeal to many, but there are many of us who see the danger in this approach since it destroys individual iniative and creates dependency. When we established our country, we defeated the greatest superpower in the world and provided our citizens with the opportunity and freedom to pursue their dreams unfettered by government. Today, over 200 years later, our form of government has transformed to such a degenerate morphing that it would be unrecognizeable to our founding fathers. Our recent election has sadly shown that the overwhelming number of citizens in our country have chosen the road to dependancy and big government rather than embracing our core principles and values. We are witnessing a changing world that reflects the way people feel about government and its role. We in the US have large segments of our society who do not work by their own choice and are supported by government payrolls funded by taxpayer dollars. We have millions of unemployed who would rather receive a government check until no longer able than to find a job and be self sufficient. We have millions of children who justly are supported by government aid as their mothers continue to produce offspring to the detriment of the children and the government. And, we support citizens who have not worked for generations and continue to be supported by our taxpayer money. They have the same vote that I do and will they vote for their own selfish interests or what is truly best for the country? This is not an Aussie problem or a US problem or a Euro problem, it is a world problem. And we, who think differently are witnessing the destruction of our Western Civilization. Sadly, the numbers are on their side. A New World Order is coming.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

...We in the US have large segments of our society who do not work by their own choice and are supported by government payrolls funded by taxpayer dollars. We have millions of unemployed who would rather receive a government check until no longer able than to find a job and be self sufficient. We have millions of children who justly are supported by government aid as their mothers continue to produce offspring to the detriment of the children and the government. And, we support citizens who have not worked for generations and continue to be supported by our taxpayer money. They have the same vote that I do and will they vote for their own selfish interests or what is truly best for the country? This is not an Aussie problem or a US problem or a Euro problem, it is a world problem. And we, who think differently are witnessing the destruction of our Western Civilization. Sadly, the numbers are on their side. A New World Order is coming.

Please get off your soap box...we need the wood. All these statements are way too generalized. I have worked with the poor, disabled and mentally ill. Too make these blatant and random statements is nothing more than your opinion based on some right wing information. Sure it is true that some are scammers. But you don't know how many. Look who got us into this double digit unemployment in the first place and who de-regulated the financial institutions so the crocked bastards could place bets against your so called "People who pulled themselves up by the bootstraps" buying houses that they could not afford but convinced by the lenders that they could. Then those same crocked bastards made money on the house, the buyers loses. Then those bootstrap people are now the ones on social assistance and unemployed that you now have so much distain for. It's a circle of who and what you like isn't it. And what if you find yourself in their shoes. What then. Will you be to blame? Or was it just that you did the best you could and lost out at the game.
Lets not forget those poor children in the welfare system. During this recession, the percentage has increased dramatically. You think its from Mothers popping out more children. That's pretty stupid. It's from the family being under all the stress year after year and the family breaking up. I see some of these father turn into alcoholics form the stress. But of course with all our "virtues" we should be out there helping them right? Sorry, I don't see it.
Franklin D. Roosevelt created the social service system after watch the same thing happen during the Great Depression. Children and Mothers starving on the streets. People living like animals. It would have been the same way in this disaster had it not been for the help.
No system is perfect and the human condition will always have a percentage taking advantage of the system. That's the way it is. But I for one can sleep at night nowing that I am part of the solution and also part of your problem since I am currently out of work.

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Please get off your soap box...we need the wood. All these statements are way too generalized. I have worked with the poor, disabled and mentally ill. Too make these blatant and random statements is nothing more than your opinion based on some right wing information. Sure it is true that some are scammers. But you don't know how many. Look who got us into this double digit unemployment in the first place and who de-regulated the financial institutions so the crocked bastards could place bets against your so called "People who pulled themselves up by the bootstraps" buying houses that they could not afford but convinced by the lenders that they could. Then those same crocked bastards made money on the house, the buyers loses. Then those bootstrap people are now the ones on social assistance and unemployed that you now have so much distain for. It's a circle of who and what you like isn't it. And what if you find yourself in their shoes. What then. Will you be to blame? Or was it just that you did the best you could and lost out at the game.
Lets not forget those poor children in the welfare system. During this recession, the percentage has increased dramatically. You think its from Mothers popping out more children. That's pretty stupid. It's from the family being under all the stress year after year and the family breaking up. I see some of these father turn into alcoholics form the stress. But of course with all our "virtues" we should be out there helping them right? Sorry, I don't see it.
Franklin D. Roosevelt created the social service system after watch the same thing happen during the Great Depression. Children and Mothers starving on the streets. People living like animals. It would have been the same way in this disaster had it not been for the help.
No system is perfect and the human condition will always have a percentage taking advantage of the system. That's the way it is. But I for one can sleep at night nowing that I am part of the solution and also part of your problem since I am currently out of work.

Celestial, you are correct to say that this IS an ideological discussion. However, it supports the notion that people are hardwired to see the solution in different ways. It is not uncaring to promote independence and self reliance as a virtue in life when it is the best way to insure survival as witnessed by 6 million years of hominid evolution. It is not uncaring to promote honesty and integrity in lieu of deception and dishonesty in regards to accepting government assistance. It is not uncaring to require individuals abusing the social welfare system to desist from making babies for the purpose of increased welfare checks rather than to be reared in a loving two parent home. And, it is not uncaring to expose bad, ineffective government that panders to the unwashed rabble when it clearly is ineffective and unworkable. No caring human being or civilization would ever ignore the pleas of the truly needy, but our system has been so dramatically perverted that reason and common sense are a thing of the past. We, as human beings, have choice. And, we have a responsibility to ourselves and future generations to share what is good about our civilization and to discard what is bad. When self interest irrespective of ethics and common sense become the mode d' jour, civilization declines and the Shaman becomes king.

[hellosailor]

Bill, none of that money was squandered by your government. It was squandered by your neighbors. Your neighbors, who voted for that government, and are required to keep voting, likely with the same outstanding results. Letting every idiot vote (as we do in the US) or even worse, compelling them to vote, seems something like requiring everyone to play on the soccer team. Just isn't going to result in a stellar team, is it now?

In Walt Kelly's immortal words, "we have met the enemy and he is us."

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Celestial, you are correct to say that this IS an ideological discussion. However, it supports the notion that people are hardwired to see the solution in different ways. It is not uncaring to promote independence and self reliance as a virtue in life when it is the best way to insure survival as witnessed by 6 million years of hominid evolution. It is not uncaring to promote honesty and integrity in lieu of deception and dishonesty in regards to accepting government assistance. It is not uncaring to require individuals abusing the social welfare system to desist from making babies for the purpose of increased welfare checks rather than to be reared in a loving two parent home. And, it is not uncaring to expose bad, ineffective government that panders to the unwashed rabble when it clearly is ineffective and unworkable. No caring human being or civilization would ever ignore the pleas of the truly needy, but our system has been so dramatically perverted that reason and common sense are a thing of the past. We, as human beings, have choice. And, we have a responsibility to ourselves and future generations to share what is good about our civilization and to discard what is bad. When self interest irrespective of ethics and common sense become the mode d' jour, civilization declines and the Shaman becomes king.

If you had written the prior post more like this...(softened up). I would not have said what I said. But it seemed like you were painting a whole lot of people with the same brush. I take people on an individual basis. Last year I had 2 such circumstances you were talking about. One, started out fine with a friend on Chemo, staying at my house and puking at all hours while feeling the effects of the radiation. I was glad to help but once it was over, he felt too comfortable to move on. So I had to encourage him on his way. Another was a female friend who was unemployed and losing her flat. I put her up for almost nothing and for 5 months she stayed in her room playing on facebook 24/7 and collecting a check from unemployment. I asked her to leave So yes, it does happen. But I could site cases 10:1 for for people needing a hand up. Especially one recovering from mental illness, alcoholism and the run of the mill unemployed/down and out people.
Personally, I think all the worlds problems are based in over-population. But for some reason, we can never touch that issue.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Personally, I think all the worlds problems are based in over-population. But for some reason, we can never touch that issue.

That probably falls foul of the CF play nice rule .

(which is why some of my political leanings don't get shared here )

[ArtM]

I'm going to watch the movie Waterworld.

Countries like Sweden and Australia are leading all the world's industrialized nations toward global socialism - a transition that is nearly complete throughout Europe and progressing rapidly in North America.

Just last week I started asking myself if there would be any true capitalist nations 50 years from now, and if so where are they? I might just move there as soon as my kids are out of High School and officially under the care of Nanny Sam.

Not kidding - any ideas on this? If I want to live in a Capitalist nation, where would I go? I'm wondering about Africa and South America...

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by Factor

Dont want to get too side tracked, but the local shop front has to pay for shipping as well- but instead of shipping to customer its shipping into the store, no?

The local shop has to pay for retail space and additional staffing - I suspect (but don't know) that this exceeds the cost of shipping.

[Greenhand]

Originally Posted by ArtM

I'm going to watch the movie Waterworld.

Countries like Sweden and Australia are leading all the world's industrialized nations toward global socialism - a transition that is nearly complete throughout Europe and progressing rapidly in North America.

Just last week I started asking myself if there would be any true capitalist nations 50 years from now, and if so where are they? I might just move there as soon as my kids are out of High School and officially under the care of Nanny Sam.

Not kidding - any ideas on this? If I want to live in a Capitalist nation, where would I go? I'm wondering about Africa and South America...

Many of those have larger social programs than the US and most are either run by warlords or an oligarchy, but that last option is a fairly logical outcome of capitalism, wherein as certain groups gain power, they change the rules in order to maintain their privileges.

Heaven forbid that a couple of countries that rank high on population happiness and financial stability lead the way on anything.

[Weyalan]

I've travelled a fair bit of the world.... 50 countries or so, last time I bothered to count. It is a big wide world out there, but I have chosen Australia to call home (and no; I wasn't born here). There are lots of things to complain about, but on balance, there aren't any better places (for me, anyway). But don't take my word for it, go out there and explore for yourself.

[ArtM]

Originally Posted by Greenhand

Heaven forbid that a couple of countries that rank high on population happiness and financial stability lead the way on anything.

As stated in a prior post, there are Makers and Takers. "Population Happiness" means that life is good for the takers, who far outnumber the makers.

The "Makers" are frustrated that their efforts are going to waste as they discover that the faster they dig, the deeper they get in the hole. Eventually, they reach a point that they simply cannot dig or are not willing to dig any more.

30 years of life-work experience provides this retrospect. Look into the personal finances of anyone you know 45 or older and living in an industrialized nation. It is not by coincidence that all of them, with extreme rare exception, have little or nothing to show for 25 years or more of labor and savings. It is by design.