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Old 21-10-2008, 14:12   #46

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Yeah, Guzzi, in some US States a FIREARM is legally defined as I said before--using any stored energy source, chemical explosive, springs, air pressure, whatever you can think of. FIRE is no longer part of the legal definition.

Historical definitions don't count here, the nice men in polyester uniforms don't give a damn about jailhouse historians, they just lock you up anyway.
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Old 21-10-2008, 14:28   #47
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The original question was-is it a firearm.
And, not by the "legal" definition of some judge who feels it is his job to CREATE law rather than enforce it, but the PHYSICAL definition is it is not a firearm.

There is a reason it is called a firearm. Powder BURNS to create the pressure to expel a projectile.

I'm not saying air rifles aren't weapons-as a kid I had a Crosman 760. But it didn't burn anything to eject a projectile. But it could be deadly if used properly.
Heck, a rock if thrown properly is deadly. Would your arm then be considered a firearm?

It's the lawmakers who argue semantics. I'm going by the textbook definition. I can't help it if lawmakers are rewriting definitions to suit their agendas.

I guess it depends on what the definition of the word, "is" is.
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Old 21-10-2008, 14:37   #48
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Zanshin is correct, this wasn't a question of semantics, nor was it a question of morality but rather of the legality of carrying one onboard and undeclared in various jurisdictions. The answer in many jurisdictions, whether or not anyone likes it, IS NO - it is decidedly illegal.
Brad
Exactly ...
Semantics aside, it's always a matter of law.
What do the AUTHORITIES (having jurisdiction) rule?
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Old 21-10-2008, 16:59   #49

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Guzzi-
ROFL! "I'm going by the textbook definition. " For a fellow who doesn't care about the semantics of the matter, you're sure investing in them. The OP asked a question about firearms in the context of LAWS and whether he'd be ARRESTED for them.
He's asking about statues and legalities, and you're looking at textbooks? Do yourself a favor, go buy Black's Legal Dictionary, that's "the textbook" for legal definitions in the US legal system. There are others in other systems, and when you don't have statutes available--it makes a good start. When someone asks about getting arrested, "textbooks" don't matter. Legal statutes carry their own definitions, and with or without sematics, THOSE ARE THE ONLY RELEVANT DEFINITIONS FOR A QUESTION ABOUT THOSE LAWS.

Show a water cop any dictionary you please--the only one he's going to look at it, is his pocket guide to the statutes of his venue. Any water cop, any venue, any question you've got.

"But officer it doesn't make fire, I've got three PhD's from Cambridge who can explain why you're wrong!" ROFL! Great cartoon, works worldwide.

Context really IS everything.
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Old 21-10-2008, 22:35   #50
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A friend introduced me to his high power air rifle over the weekend and I was amazed at the power. So I was wondering if an air gun would be considered a fire arm outside of the US??

Since we have scuba tanks...
That is the original post. Reading I don't get the impression whatever happens inside the US really matters as an answer.

The answer is - In many countries Yes an air rifle is considered illegal, in some not illegal as such but are restricted in assorted ways. Arriving at a country outside of the US and not telling the customs people you have one on-board could be asking for serious trouble. I've alway told Customs of anything that maybe a bit dodgy and have always found it's no problem. I know one who didn't then got busted. He's now is marked and get rummage searches in every port. All Customs talk to all other Customs so screw one and you've screwed them all and yourself in the process.

In the odd country they are possible perfectly fine but in the immortal words of that masterful poet Clint 'Dirty Harry' Eastwood;

"You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

What a fantastic line, it'll live forever that one. One I use on my jnr staff often only to find they usually aren't feeling that lucky
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Old 24-10-2008, 19:05   #51
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If you want to get technical, there is a federal law that forbids classing air guns as firearms. Now, take that with 15 million bucks and you might win the case in some of the states where they are regulated as firearms against federal mandate. Likely they would drop the casewhen it began to look like you would win so their ability to harrass honest hard working folks is not diminished by you winning the case and stopping their illegal unconstitutional activities . I mean, they can't find any real criminals to harrass so they have to generate income for themselves and the lawyers somehow! Even they know that only the honest folks actually pay the fines that pay them! If they just arrested criminals, they would go broke!
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Old 24-10-2008, 19:33   #52

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"If you want to get technical, there is a federal law that forbids classing air guns as firearms." Do you have a citation for that? I'd be curious.
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Old 24-10-2008, 19:35   #53
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I saw an ad in a sailing magazine a couple of years ago for a steel insert that went in a flare gun and would shoot I think a 38 cal. I would think you could hide that on your boat easily, but the bullets? Certainly an effective weapon.
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Old 24-10-2008, 20:55   #54
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I don't have the reference handy, but it is there. Been several years since I looked it up as part of another discussion. I am one of the so called air gun nuts with several high powered air rifles. There are some countries out there that regulate by caliber what guns of any kind that can be used inside their borders with anything that has a barrel anywhere near the NATO military calibers being banned while larger or smaller calibers are allowed.
There is a long history of various airguns being used as military arms in Europe that dates farther back than you would ever guess. At a time when a good man with his matchlock could fire a couple of shots a minute, a man with a giradoni airgun could fire about 60. The ability to change bottles of air and continue to fire made them feared weapons even tho they were seldom if ever actually used. They had a wheeled hand pumped compressor much like the old pump fire pumps and a crew that did nothing but fill the buttflask air tanks so the shooters could continue to fire at a rapid rate for the time period. They have been considered firearms and military weapons there for centuries.
If you check the Yellow forum, there are likely folks there from most of the countries you would be visiting that could answer some questions in more detail.
Warning!!! Adult air guns are as addicting as sailboats. Going to the Yellow Forum asking questions has been known to transmit the addiction! Be hard on you guys if you catch it, having to leave them at home!
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Old 25-10-2008, 02:20   #55
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Originally Posted by San Juan Sailor View Post
I saw an ad in a sailing magazine a couple of years ago for a steel insert that went in a flare gun and would shoot I think a 38 cal. I would think you could hide that on your boat easily, but the bullets? Certainly an effective weapon.
"Flare Insert – Any Other Weapon:

ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) is aware of an insert/sleeve designed to be installed in an Orion 25mm/12 gauge flare launcher that allows the use of conventional ammunition in these flare launchers. FTB was contacted by Orion, who indicated that these flare launchers are not designed to accept standard ammunition, and that the use of an adapter in conjunction with conventional ammunition would likely result in a catastrophic failure of the flare launcher.

There are two sizes of inserts available; one size for a 12 gauge flare launcher and one for a 25mm launcher. These insets are smooth bore and capable of accepting a variety of different types of conventional ammunition.

It is the determination of FTB that if these inserts are installed in a flare launcher or are possessed with a flare launcher they would be classified as an “Any Other Weapon”, which is a firearm subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act (NFA) ...

... With the adapters completed, FTB personnel conducted live fire testing. The live fire testing resulted in the eventual destruction of all four flare launchers, and confirmed that the use of these adapters in conjunction with conventional ammunition is likely to result in a catastrophic failure of the flare launcher.”

Goto ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch (FTB):
ATF Online - Fire Launcher Inserts

Insert For Sale:
12 Gauge Insert Adapter for your 26.5mm Flare Gun
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Old 25-10-2008, 07:38   #56
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Early Air Rifles were very effective weapons!

A little off topic, since the original post was about current air rifles, but this is very interesting. The early air rifles (c. 1800) were very effective - much more so than the muskets of the era. They were so expensive that typically only the very rich (nobility) would use them. I posted this since it answers the related question of whether it would be reasonable to consider an air rifle a weapon rather than a toy. It is reasonable, as long as some objective metric, such as energy or muzzle velocity, is used.

Postscripts: A Short History of the Air Rifle
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Old 27-10-2008, 14:59   #57
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Canuck-Dave: Sadly, the young boy died. CBC.ca reports "even stuffed toys are more carefully regulated than air guns."
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Old 27-10-2008, 17:43   #58

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""even stuffed toys are more carefully regulated than air guns."
Assuming that is correct, it is probably because of the huge number of deaths caused by stuffed toys. By toddlers choking on glass eyes from teddy bears and similar incidents.
As compared to the very rare incidents of harm from kids playing with air guns. The typical "kids" BB gun is a low-power BB gun, not a high power air weapon, and the typical BB is stopped half-embedded in the skin, penetrating no further, and doing substantially less damage than a sharpened pencil or running with scissors.

Ever see "French doors" with all those little 6x9 glass windows in them separating two rooms? Very big 100 years ago, still popular into the 50's, now almost unfound in the US, because so many kids got so badly slashed running into them. When I grew up, EVERYONE knew someone who had been badly injured by french doors, patio doors (with no stripes on them) and glass-fronted kitchen counter doors.

Pellet guns? Much less of a problem. Roller skates left at the top of the stairs? Almost as bad as glass doors, my cousins had a little hospital run for a broken bone after that one. It was common, once upon a time.
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Old 27-10-2008, 23:32   #59
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When I just checked Google news, I found 512 stories related to pellet guns. Oddly enough, after wading through quite a number of search pages, I couldn't find a single one related to death or injury related to stuffed toys - despite this being the pre-christmas season with parent groups warning about potential injury.

In short, I call ****.
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Old 28-10-2008, 00:43   #60

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"I found 512 stories related to pellet guns." Yes, and how many involved deaths from them?

In the US version of Google, there are "about 511,000" pages found for "death from stuffed toy" but if you refine that to "accidental death from stuffed toy" it drops to 88,000 pages in English alone.

Among them, the Los Angeles Fire Department www.preparedness.info/npi/accprev/default.htm warns that loose bits on stuffed toys are a choking hazard. Although they don't break down the number of children they have savced, versus lost.

"5 toy-related deaths reported in children under 15 were caused by choking or asphyxia due to a toy ball in the US 2003 (US Consumer Product Safety Commission, 2003) " Child accidental death - WrongDiagnosis.com

"206,500 toy-related injuries required emergency room treatment in the US 2003 (US Consumer Product Safety Commission, 2003) "

You can try to mine the statistics all sorts of ways, but at least make an honest attempt to compare deaths, or injuries, from the one and the other, apples to apples.

Then consider that in the 1950's and early 1960's (until JFK's assasination) many schools and camps had shooting teams and taught firearm safety, at least here in the US. Now, most refuse to even allow safety training to be conducted in the schools. Ban the safety training--and by all means, more accidents will happen.

If you honestly couldn't find one infant or toddler death due to choking on bits of stuffed toys, then your country is a much safer place than mine. Or--one that is hiding the bodies better. Here, children still choke to death every year, and our government still makes a bit issue out of trying to prevent that.
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