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Old 22-11-2007, 05:24   #31
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A few of us were talking about a similar argument you hear often about bow thrusters. One side takes up the stand point that they if you need one, you mus'nt be able to stear you boat very well and you need to learn to drive it better. Well my reply was, yeah I bet if the technology was available way back, Cpt Cook would have had a bow thruster. (I don't have one by the way, but I think they are good)
A similar argument could be made concerning disc breaks.
A skilled driver may not need them; but which F-1 racer would choose to forgo them.
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Old 22-11-2007, 06:12   #32
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Alot of this for me stems from the Hybrid discussions and the uber complex charging power systems.
I guess the more I learn, the less I need.
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Old 22-11-2007, 08:30   #33
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I've been having the same thought as you on this Pat. The conclusssion I've come to is to not buy anything else till I need it. Of course the boat I bought has a lot of flash whiz bangs. Then I added a few. I plan on getting the systems running and then seeing what I can take off, w/o fuss from the admiral. I enjoy fixing things but I enjoy sailing more.
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Old 22-11-2007, 10:11   #34
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First of all Happy Thanksgiving to one and all!
Now for my rant! I think cruisers some times are confused with livaboards. There is a major difference. Cruisers have a house. Liveaboards have a boat and a storage unit . Somethings that are considered luxuries are things that livaboards have no place to leave them except on board.
I know a lot of people would consider a lot of things that are on our boat as frivolous. But are required for us. Like fridge for example, if we lose of fridge, Diane's chemo goes bad, so I have two inverters and a small lighter plug cooler! We have TV due to the fact that Diane's vision is gone due to MS, so when she is down with a MS or Lupus flare, she has TV/DVD to watch, so again may seem like a gizmo/luxury to some, but to us a requirement. And these things are required for us to move aboard. GPS is a safety issue, (I really can navigate without one though ), auto helm is for single handing, computer IS considered a luxury, if it breaks, as it has, it is a bummer but far from a boat stopper!! Water maker was to save money.
My point is one person's gizmo/luxuries may in fact be another person's requirement to get out there!!
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Old 22-11-2007, 10:43   #35
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My point is one person's gizmo/luxuries may in fact be another person's requirement to get out there!!
Yup.

It is all grey out there....grey grey grey.
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Old 22-11-2007, 10:51   #36
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this seems to be going off track.

I'm not talking about the latest GarMarine Q1400 full color display with chart ploter, gps, radar, video with built in DVD and the shaving mirror that pops out of the back. Nor am I commenting about refrigeration or water makers.

There are incredibly involved drive/power/yacht management systems on the market now and even more coming. The latest and greatest Lagoon is a hybrid diesel drive.
The stated goal of these systems is vessel integration.
We all know from experience that the electrical system is the most temperamental system on our boats, but were making it more complex......where's the logic in that?
Basic mechanical engines are becoming more complex with electronics due to emissions regulations....Then there are smart charger/inverter combinations. All designed so we can "not worry" the computer has control. Well I'm old school, HAL will have as little control of my boat as possible making my life easier thru less junk breaking.
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Old 22-11-2007, 11:07   #37
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Yeah I see what you are meaning. When I was a young lad, (no smart comments) if your car broke down, you could usually fix it with some "wire and bindertwine" type arrangement to get you home. Nowa days, the CPU notices are slight stutter and before you know it, you are stopped on the side of the road because the engine managment system has shut everything down. I see similar issues in boats, with CPU based engine management systems controlling things with these new generation power plants. I get cold shivers when I think of the new fandangled electronic stearing systems. If any of those has a hickup, your destined to a tow home. Hopefully someone is around to tow you.
On the other hand, our boat is large and in many respects, some things a little antiquated. The one thing I really would love is to be able to raise and lower the main from the push of a button. The area I sail is so frustratingly fickle with wind, that you get into a good breeze, Raise the main and then while trying to catch your breath again, the wind dies. So we don't raise it till we have traveled some 35Nm to open water to sail. It's either that, or sit waiting for breezes and take an entire day to travel the same distance it takes only 30minutes under power.
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Old 22-11-2007, 11:29   #38
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Your both right in that the more complex a system is made then the more likely it is so break. On the other hand sophistication also brings with it greater efficiency and systems that make the boat more comfortable and habitable.

The two examples I can think of are modern ships. Modern ships are incredibly complex and much of that complexity relates to efficiency in terms of minimizing costs and the minimization of pollution.

We also have hybrid cars for the same reasons...less pollution and greater fuel economy.

So are these hybrid cars and ships any less reliable? No, not really. The reason they are more complex and yet still reliable is because they were extremely well engineered. I think it is possible to have sophisticated systems if the engineering is done well and is tested out in the field before it is sold.

A commercial passenger jet fits the same category. Extremely sophisticated yet extremely reliable. I know some will argue, well the captain has to be able to fix it. Can the captain of a 767 fix the plane while underway? How often does a sophisticated modern aircraft crash from a mechanical failure?...not too often considering it is millions of flights between crashes.

Look how extremely complex a radar is and yet how reliable they are. Sure they fail every once in a while like everything else, but really well engineered radars very rarely fail. Does it make any sense to not bring a radar because they are a complex piece of electronics?...No.

The other issue is maintenance. Do hybrid cars and and radars require a high degree of maintenance for their sophistication?..No. Airplanes..yes. Good engineering though is going in the direction of lower maintenance for the sophistication.

So essentially it is how well the engineering is done for something that is complex that is the bottom line and not the sophistication itself that creates failures.
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Old 22-11-2007, 11:37   #39
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Pat - You won't get any argument from me. The farther from home base you get the more important it is to be able to service the required basic systems. Automobiles are not like boats. Pulling over to the side of the road and calling AAA is not an option. The simple diesel powerplant is my choice.

Alan - You have an issue that our firends here have. Getting underway and under sail is a bit of a chore. They need to be going somewhere to make it worth the sail handling effort. That's another vote for a smaller boat. Maybe you need a second boat - LOL. Getting underway and sails hoisted is a 5 minute job for us. Shorting sail takes seconds.

That's one of my concerns as we look to trade up. We now sail at least one evening a week. On the boat by 5PM and sailing by 5:10. Can't see that happening on a 45 footer.
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Old 22-11-2007, 11:54   #40
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Yeah I see what you are meaning. When I was a young lad, .
Hell Alan when you were a lad they were still using an "Abacus" to count with
I agree with the general consensus, the new boats are getting crazy. I was kidding with a friend (non boater), and told him," I was going to program the auto pilot to take the boat to Florida and I would then dingy out to meet it" he ask if I could really do that?
What is scary, is you could almost do that!!!!!!!!!!! Why don't they stay home and virtual sail their boats?
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Old 22-11-2007, 13:00   #41
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David,
Don't get me started on Hybrid excuses for cars.
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Old 22-11-2007, 13:46   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
… When I was a young lad, if your car broke down, you could usually fix it with some "wire and bindertwine" type arrangement to get you home. Now a days, the CPU notices are slight stutter and before you know it, you are stopped on the side of the road because the engine managment system has shut everything down. I see similar issues in boats, with CPU based engine management systems controlling things with these new generation power plants …
I have no objection with “smart” CPU controllers, as long as they were smart enough to tell me what they are doing.
The problem is not that the equipment is too sophisticated; but that it has control; but it is not sophisticated enough to exercise judgement, or even offer "warning". *
Eg:
As Alan suggests, my old 56 Ford would run “rougher & rougher” as things deteriorated, offering ample warning that something needed attention. The modern car automatically adjusts itself, to maintain optimum possible operation, under existing conditions – until it cannot – then it just stops (or won’t start).
By the same token; my latest office printer/copier/scanner keeps on adjusting itself to accommodate deteriorating conditions, until it cannot (anymore); at which time it stops, and displays a maintenance message (add toner, whatever). No warning; just stops!

* This discussion reminds me of the Authority = Responsibility issues, discussed elsewhere.

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Old 22-11-2007, 14:31   #43
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My previous experince with cruising was very similiar to Camping.
Now i like camping out but not for months at a time.
I have designed a boat that is comfortable with hot water on tap, ice for my drinks and a desalinator for fresh water showers. Plus a refrigerator and freezer so I can eat a variety of foods.
Yes I am getting older plus I like to have a women on board, so I even have washing machine.
Navigation is less stressfull with a GPS chartplotter.
Those who want to go back to basics and live like the Pardleys, good on you, enjoy it, but don't critizise my life style, just because it is different from yours.
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Old 22-11-2007, 14:42   #44
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My previous experince with cruising was very similiar to Camping.
Now i like camping out but not for months at a time.
I have designed a boat that is comfortable with hot water on tap, ice for my drinks and a desalinator for fresh water showers. Plus a refrigerator and freezer so I can eat a variety of foods.
Yes I am getting older plus I like to have a women on board, so I even have washing machine.
Navigation is less stressfull with a GPS chartplotter.
Those who want to go back to basics and live like the Pardleys, good on you, enjoy it, but don't critizise my life style, just because it is different from yours.
Beau,
You've missed the point completely. Please reread the quote below and comment on the topic if you so desire. My original post may have been worded loosely. It was intentional to avoid the appearance of a direct at several ongoing threads on the board.

Quote:
this seems to be going off track.

I'm not talking about the latest GarMarine Q1400 full color display with chart ploter, gps, radar, video with built in DVD and the shaving mirror that pops out of the back. Nor am I commenting about refrigeration or water makers.

There are incredibly involved drive/power/yacht management systems on the market now and even more coming. The latest and greatest Lagoon is a hybrid diesel drive.
The stated goal of these systems is vessel integration.
We all know from experience that the electrical system is the most temperamental system on our boats, but were making it more complex......where's the logic in that?
Basic mechanical engines are becoming more complex with electronics due to emissions regulations....Then there are smart charger/inverter combinations. All designed so we can "not worry" the computer has control. Well I'm old school, HAL will have as little control of my boat as possible making my life easier thru less junk breaking.
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Old 22-11-2007, 16:11   #45
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The one thing I really would love is to be able to raise and lower the main from the push of a button. The area I sail is so frustratingly fickle with wind, that you get into a good breeze, Raise the main and then while trying to catch your breath again, the wind dies. So we don't raise it till we have traveled some 35Nm to open water to sail. It's either that, or sit waiting for breezes and take an entire day to travel the same distance it takes only 30minutes under power.
Hey Alan,
when we were down your way last week we used all the sails to get there and then once in Pelourus the main stayed furled under its cover. We just pull the gib out and gib sail everywhere. If the wind gets up the furler is good.
We very rarely use the main in the Sounds.
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