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Old 09-06-2016, 21:50   #76
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

The Ugly American idea has been around for a long time and I never bought into it. I was always friendly and respectful and have been treated well in return.

MarkJ pointed out two additional instances of US citizens being arrested for undeclared firearms, one a few weeks ago and one in, I believe, August of 2015. Perhaps there are three or four boats per year where undeclared firearms are found resulting in arrests and fines. I have no idea how many US boats visit the Bahamas yearly and what the percentage of bad guys to good guys might be. I do know that as a good guy I'll follow their laws and approach everyone I meet with friendliness and respect. It has worked for me for well over half a century.

Regarding more thorough inspections. Inspect to your heart's content. If I've declared my firearms they'll be thrilled to see that I've respected their authority.

On the subject of being flagged and scrutinized by other countries, the same thing applies. They'll be happy to see that I'm respectful and follow their laws. If I, on the other hand, resent thorough inspections, I'll have to choose to stay away from places where I'll be thoroughly inspected.

I don't buy into a few bad cruisers spoiling things for the rest of the cruisers any more than I buy into a few bad apples of a race or religion spoiling things for an entire race or religion.

I know many have left this thread, but I thought it worth saying to those who have stuck around.
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Old 10-06-2016, 05:26   #77
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Originally Posted by bobnlesley View Post
If we accept that any home containing no guns can possibly be the source of a weapon used in an accidental shooting of yourself/loved one/innocents.
???


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Originally Posted by bobnlesley View Post
Then if even just one of the millions of firearms in (U.S.) homes causes the death of a single yourself/loved one/innocents, then it has in fact increased the odds; Not by much I grant you, but whilst I'm no expert, I strongly suspect that there might possibly have been more than one accidental shooting death since 1776?

That's a fair point. OTOH, I guess that same reasoning would suggest motor vehicle ownership increases the odds of falling prey to death by motor vehicle. 33,804 motor vehicle fatalities in the U.S. in 2013, a similar number to the 33,636 firearms deaths (63% suicide). http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf



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Originally Posted by Waterrat10 View Post
Take a look at this study from the American Journal of Epidemiology. Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
Thanks, I'd forgotten suicide is always included.

Interesting language in that study. The Johns Hopkins people have publicly adopted a stance on the topic, and they ignore Gary Kleck's work... so I'm surprised the authors were even permitted to cite Kleck, even with their dismissive language.


FWIW, I'm not arguing pros and cons of gun ownership (or even motor vehicle ownership). I don't have a dog in that...

-Chris
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Old 10-06-2016, 09:54   #78
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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The Ugly American idea has been around for a long time and I never bought into it. I was always friendly and respectful and have been treated well in return.

MarkJ pointed out two additional instances of US citizens being arrested for undeclared firearms, one a few weeks ago and one in, I believe, August of 2015. Perhaps there are three or four boats per year where undeclared firearms are found resulting in arrests and fines. I have no idea how many US boats visit the Bahamas yearly and what the percentage of bad guys to good guys might be. I do know that as a good guy I'll follow their laws and approach everyone I meet with friendliness and respect. It has worked for me for well over half a century.

Regarding more thorough inspections. Inspect to your heart's content. If I've declared my firearms they'll be thrilled to see that I've respected their authority.

On the subject of being flagged and scrutinized by other countries, the same thing applies. They'll be happy to see that I'm respectful and follow their laws. If I, on the other hand, resent thorough inspections, I'll have to choose to stay away from places where I'll be thoroughly inspected.

I don't buy into a few bad cruisers spoiling things for the rest of the cruisers any more than I buy into a few bad apples of a race or religion spoiling things for an entire race or religion.

I know many have left this thread, but I thought it worth saying to those who have stuck around.
I will stick around if this doesn't turn into all the other crazy gun thread which some how always happens. Your second to last paragraph about a few bad cruisers don't ruin it for everyone. This is an extreme example that I hope does not raise too much backlash. I am only making the point that a few bad actors can spoil it for everyone.

Ask any Muslim traveling in and out of the USA and probably European Union if a few bad apples has caused them a ton of grieve. Less then 50 Muslim extremists nut jobs kill less then 3100 USA citizens over the last twenty years. 50 out of 1.6 billion people. The USA and coalitions forces has killed over 210,000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Who terrorizes who?

When you are referring to ugly Americans above are you talking about USA Americans? Anyone living in North, Central or South America is and American. I have heard many USA citizen corrected by other Americans in other American countries multiple times for this USA centrist use of the term American.
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:08   #79
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

Ranger

Kleck cannot stop and would not stop anyone from citing his work. It would totally discredit all of his work and be contrary to the scientific process. I am not fully aware of Kleck's research but he has certainly taken a stance on his believes. I suppose we do what we must to keep the funding coming and that surly keeps one employed and published. There is a valid debate on weather scientist should be more vocal on what the evidence supports or does not support. I am not taking any stance on the above statements just laying them out to show it is shades of grey and not black and white as is often professed by talking heads.
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:31   #80
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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I will stick around if this doesn't turn into all the other crazy gun thread which some how always happens. Your second to last paragraph about a few bad cruisers don't ruin it for everyone. This is an extreme example that I hope does not raise too much backlash. I am only making the point that a few bad actors can spoil it for everyone.

Ask any Muslim traveling in and out of the USA and probably European Union if a few bad apples has caused them a ton of grieve. Less then 50 Muslim extremists nut jobs kill less then 3100 USA citizens over the last twenty years. 50 out of 1.6 billion people. The USA and coalitions forces has killed over 210,000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Who terrorizes who?

When you are referring to ugly Americans above are you talking about USA Americans? Anyone living in North or South America is and American. I have heard many USA citizen corrected by other Americans in other American countries multiple times for this USA centrist use of the term American.

I'm glad you're sticking around.

My point was that greater scrutiny does not necessarily spoil anything for someone. Some people may not like closer scrutiny but when entering a foreign country the nation you are entering is sovereign and, as is often said, "Their country, their rules." They have a right to scrutinize to protect their citizens' life and liberty.

It is appalling that the US polices the world. The US Constitition allowed for a Navy to protect our shores but did not allow a standing national army. The founders held that with a national army we would become involved militarily with other nations throughout the world. If we have an army we'll use it. They were right.

The term Ugly American refers to a novel published in 1958. I haven't read it but am familiar with the premise. In one post somewhere I referred to Americans and put (US) after it. In the case above I am referring to US citizens.
I think in most cases the people not declaring firearms in the Bahamas are US citizens. Here's a link to a little about the novel: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ugly_American

The OP. There's apparently something very fishy going on in this case. An AR15 was declared but not on the boat. Other guns which weren't declared were found instead.

Where did the AR15 go if it was, in fact, not on the boat?
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Old 10-06-2016, 10:49   #81
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

I thought it was just .223 ammo declared with no AR15 declared but not sure about that.

I was not aware of that novel but it seems I should have been. Maybe I just don't remember it but I am embarrassed to never have heard of such an influential novel. I would not say it is just a USA thing to be insensitive to other cultures. I would guess it is more of a human trait. I have surely seen it illustrated by many nationalities. If the Ugly American was good enough for JFK to send to every member of the US Senate I should probably read it. Thanks for the education.
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Old 10-06-2016, 12:14   #82
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Ranger

Kleck cannot stop and would not stop anyone from citing his work. It would totally discredit all of his work and be contrary to the scientific process. I am not fully aware of Kleck's research but he has certainly taken a stance on his believes. I suppose we do what we must to keep the funding coming and that surly keeps one employed and published. There is a valid debate on weather scientist should be more vocal on what the evidence supports or does not support. I am not taking any stance on the above statements just laying them out to show it is shades of grey and not black and white as is often professed by talking heads.

FWIW, I meant I was surprised the John Hopkins involvement allowed the authors to cite Kleck...

In any case, I just hadn't heard that statement about owners at increased risk before -- said that particular way -- so was interested in the source.

Mostly the more common version of the statement that I've heard has been that owners -- in the very act of trying to defend themselves with a firearms -- are much more likely to shoot themselves than the attackers. I think I haven't seen a legitimate source for that, either... don't know if authoritative or not.

Anyway, I do tend to agree with many here, that following the rules of the country you're visiting is appropriate.

Otherwise, I'm usually more interested in studying the verbiage and style of a given debate, no matter what the topic.

-Chris
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Old 10-06-2016, 14:05   #83
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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I thought it was just .223 ammo declared with no AR15 declared but not sure about.....
The boat in question's buddy boat told me that the AR15 was declared but not all the ammunition nor the other 2 firearms. That's second (now third) hand info fwiw.

I was really hoping this thread would stay away from the pro/anti gun rhetoric, but that's a bit much to expect on this forum.
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Old 10-06-2016, 14:44   #84
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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I would not say it is just a USA thing to be insensitive to other cultures. I would guess it is more of a human trait. I have surely seen it illustrated by many nationalities.
Ain't that the truth.

While I have indeed met a few 'ugly Canadians' traveling overseas it is the American backpacker/traveler in Europe with a Canadian flag on their pack pretending to be from here that seems to be common, yet never the reverse. Certainly the perception of the Ugly American still exists and probably on both sides of the discussion. On the other hand, many of the French don't think too highly of the stereotypical Germans or English who 'caravan' there on vacation.
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Old 10-06-2016, 15:00   #85
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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The boat in question's buddy boat told me that the AR15 was declared but not all the ammunition nor the other 2 firearms. That's second (now third) hand info fwiw.

Any rumor as to WHY?
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Old 10-06-2016, 16:08   #86
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Going back to playing the odds. First having fire arms in a home increases your odds of shooting yourself or a loved one, and innocents more then it protects you.
That's an oft-repeated falsehood. The studies that purported to demonstrate it range from fundamentally flawed to intentionally fraudulent.

The best exposition I've seen on the flaws coming out of the public health studies on the issues of gun control dates back to the 90's, but nothing much has changed.

GUNS AND PUBLIC HEALTH: EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE OR PANDEMIC OF PROPAGANDA?
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Old 10-06-2016, 16:55   #87
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

Wow...I really should have declared my AKs when sailing through South Pacific, Asia, Red Sea and Med. I feel so foolish now.
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Old 10-06-2016, 17:39   #88
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Mostly the more common version of the statement that I've heard has been that owners -- in the very act of trying to defend themselves with a firearms -- are much more likely to shoot themselves than the attackers.

-Chris
I have not heard that. I would be surprised if that is true. I would be even more surprised to the statistical significant of such findings given the extremely rare occasions in which a gun was utilized to protect the average gun owner. Not including people who utilize guns everyday such as police officers etc.

There is no doubt that there are muddy waters around many gun studies and statics on both sides of the argument. I have a feeling that the reality is 98% of folks would fall somewhere in the middle with few who think 0 regulations or all out ban. Both seem equally crazy to me.

I do think it is clear that having a gun in your home or boat does not make one safer. Not to say that means one should not have one. To go to the automobile above there are risk we all must accept and things we can do to reduce the risk. For example wear a seat belt, drive sober, don't text etc etc. Same for guns in the home or boat. Proper training in safe handling, utilize while sober, trigger locks when appropriate, gun safe etc. Guns are tools and can be utilized in a safe manner but if your motives are solely to protect your family the odds are not in your favor. Accidents happen more often then prevention of a crime. I am sure there are times when a crime is prevented too but way less often. I often hear of kids shooting other kids playing with a gun they should not have had access to. Owners cleaning a loaded weapon and shooting themselves or even the VP of the USA shooting some guy while hunting. Shooting the frantic car accident victim pounding on your door in the middle of the night. I hear about this stuff all the time. When one has a dangerous tool accidents are more likely to happen. To each their own. What ever makes you sleep at night. I have guns. I don't think of it as protection and would not be able to reach it if an intruder entered my house. I do have two dogs and a sword under my bed so hey we all do what we gotta do.

Years ago I had a time where I was glad I locked my door because some drunk idiot tried to enter my apartment at 3 a.m. I woke up grabbed my machete and was really glad I locked my door because if he had come in my house I was pretty sure it would not have ended well for him or me. If I had a gun and unlocked door in my sleepy stupor it would have been worse. It ended up just being a neighbors drunk friend going to the wrong door. I can see the same thing happening on a boat. Drunk crew member stumbling on the wrong boat. I pull out my 9 mm and blow the guy away trying to enter my companion way fearing for my children and wife below. Again that is a risk all who carry a gun should consider and be aware of. It is not the risk I want to take but I respect others choice in the manner. Just as I respect other nations choice in the laws they pass. If I don't like it I won't go there. If they say check your gun well I would check it. If they say no gun I would not bring one.

I agree with most that we should follow said laws in country's we visit. I can not for the life of me understand why one would claim some of the guns on board and not all of the guns on board. Maybe I am missing something but it seems fair assessment by authorities that they are up to something nefarious even if they are not. I do worry that too many citizens of the USA pull this stuff and will give a bad name to future US flagged vessels.

I feel like I might be stirring the pot with my post and do not what to do that. If I am call me on it and I will walk away. I think it can be a good topic it just that it usually deteriorates quickly.
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Old 10-06-2016, 18:16   #89
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Wow...I really should have declared my AKs when sailing through South Pacific, Asia, Red Sea and Med. I feel so foolish now.
You made the right choice. Keep you, and those you love, safe.

Interesting photo. What's up with the freighter? Washing the decks?
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Old 10-06-2016, 18:16   #90
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Re: If you're going to cruise with firearms, follow the rules (example)

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Ain't that the truth.

While I have indeed met a few 'ugly Canadians' traveling overseas it is the American backpacker/traveler in Europe with a Canadian flag on their pack pretending to be from here that seems to be common, yet never the reverse. Certainly the perception of the Ugly American still exists and probably on both sides of the discussion. On the other hand, many of the French don't think too highly of the stereotypical Germans or English who 'caravan' there on vacation.
I don't think that is a good idea but I can see why people from US might feel a little more like a target due to our governments actions and notoriety. Not that Canada is innocent but generally not as notorious. Do the French think highly of anyone?
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