Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-11-2010, 13:48   #76
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Smithfield Va.
Boat: '72 Tanzer 28 "Her Idea"
Posts: 320
No one's navy has enough time or money to babysit the yacht club set..trust me there isn't enough to go around at this point..ask me why i have been working 60-80 hour weeks for the last two friggin' years...

If it's too hot stay the @#$% out of the southern red sea.

I'd rather be there though, than say, Detroit...
__________________

__________________
1972 Tanzer 28 "Her Idea"
zopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 14:00   #77
Registered User
 
Fishman_Tx's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beeville, Tx.
Boat: 1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch "Lady Catherine II", 1973 Bristol 34 - "Our Baby"(RIP), Catalina 22
Posts: 876
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by capn_billl View Post
Then the pirates will have to have elections to determine what the pirate fees are and how to distribute them. They will have to form a pirate revenue service to collect the fees and a prirate appraisal service for passing vessels to determine how much pirate fee they have to pay for safe passage. The penalty for not having the proper sticker will be the same as everywhere else, seize the vessel and hold the occupants for bail, ...oops I mean ransom. Of course if a vessel doesn't have a fee sticker a pirate warrent will have to be issued, allowing free ransacking and seizing of any valuables for "evidence", as well as confiscating any materials, (weapons), that may be used to impede pirate investigations.

Why there it is! The solution was right in front of our faces! Why didn't we think of it before??

We bog them down in bureaucracy! In a few months all piracy will come to a screeching halt as they debate who gets what, where, when, and how much. Next think you know, it's a civil war and they kill each other off. And we JDAM the winner.
__________________

__________________
Fish
"Behind every great man there is a woman, rolling her eyes."
But not for long! Now she's gone!
and peace and tranquility reign forever!
1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch
Fishman_Tx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 14:20   #78
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
I'd personally like to see the UN get involved rather than a western coalition led by the U.S.
Its not US led, and there are navies from across the globe.

"Aside from NATO, the European Union, India, China and the US-led Combined Maritime Forces (CMF), among others, are also conducting anti-piracy operations in this region."

Quote:
What about the Barbary Pirates that the Somali Pirates seem to be role modleling today?
It was because of the Barbary Pirates that the US have a Navy.
Contary to popular belief the US did not end the barbary and specifically Alerian piracy, their navy was simply too small. The US became involved in teh berbery coast, after the declaration of independence removed their ships from the protection of the British.( but the french provided cover for the revolunarty years. Initally The US secured a treaty on payment of fees to allow safe passage , this reached enormous levels with growth in US shipping,

Both the first and second barbary that followed, allowed the US to secure free passage, this mostly secured by threats and dimplomacy. By 1812 when britian expelled US vessels from the med, piracy against US vessels resumed.

by 1815 the US had to again have a show of force, and again secured free passage , however the Napolenic wars had ceased and the serious powers in the area, Especially britian focused on the barbery states, especially since it had passed anti slave laws ( oh the zeal of the converted). since the algerian and tusian piracy was mainly for slave trade, the Bitish undertook a comphresive bombard of Algiers in 1816, the Dey sued for peace, Piracy was finally eradicated by the areas becoming a french colony subsequently.


The somali pirates arose out of a complex social situation( or the breakdown of it) , they see themselves as both a local militia, and coastguard, keeping "order" in a chaotic state ( putland). Many reasons have been advanced as to why piracy has developed , but most agree that illegal fishing and destruction of somili fishing grounds was a major cause, UK agencies have estimated that 100 million dollars was stripped from somalis fishing grounds and its tuna canning industry was decimated, resulting in massive loss of jobs and incomes into already poverty striken areas.

Initially Pirates attacked fishing vessels, but increasingly recognised that merchant vessels and their insurance companies were a far more lucrative bet. Unlike comparisons drawn with the Barbery pirates, which was primarily interested in people for the african and muslim slave markes, the somali pirates are interested in ransoming the cargo and ship, which is why there have been almost no deaths amongst the captured crews.

There are signicant moves afoot in Somalia and Putland to try and bring this menance under control, partially as a result of closer co-operation and efforts of teh PUtland administartion , piracy has moved away from teh Gulf of Aden and out into the wider area.

Its also worth noting that Somali fishing has rebounded, given that the waters are no longer fished at all by foreign trawlers, and that 2009 and 2010 were bumper years, It remains to be seen if this results in a fall off in piracy.

and to return to the "gun" thread

Quote:
Levels of consternation vary. This one criticizing the person first with an exclamation of negative reaction "for God's sake" and then with a humor-veiled attack on the person with "nutty".
I'm never criticising the poster, The "for Gods sake", explains my experation with a particular topic ( arming individual cruisers) that I feel is "nutty" Simple.

Dave
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 15:04   #79
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,311
Images: 75
passive resistance,simple yet effective,safe room see;

October 25, 2010 -- Updated 1910 GMT (0310 HKT)

A cargo ship owned by Beluga Shipping was seized by pirates. The ship was freed Monday.


STORY HIGHLIGHTS
  • The vessel MV Beluga Fortune was held captive for one day
  • Crew locked themselves in a panic room, shipping firm CEO says
  • Naval forces come to rescue as crew of 16 unharmed

(CNN) -- A cargo ship seized by Somali pirates off the coast of Kenya was freed Monday after one day under siege, and the German-based Beluga Shipping company said its crew of 16 was unharmed.
The pirates were thwarted after the crew of the MV Beluga Fortune locked themselves in a panic room and switched off the main engine, cut off the fuel supply, blocked the bridge and reported the Indian Ocean attack to military forces, said Niels Stolberg, president and CEO of Beluga Shipping GmbH.
The pirates, seeking a million-dollar ransom, were unable to maintain control of the vessel, and naval forces were able to come to the rescue, Stolberg said in a statement. The vessel continued its journey to Richards Bay, South Africa.
"The excellent behavior of our colleagues on board made such a swift and happy ending of the capture possible," Stolberg said.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 15:07   #80
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by stark View Post
So Somalians can bring AK47s into the US but Canadian's cannot?
Yes, because Sammies with gun are just a couple of nuts from overseas! Canadians would be an invasion.
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 15:55   #81
Registered User
 
Fishman_Tx's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beeville, Tx.
Boat: 1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch "Lady Catherine II", 1973 Bristol 34 - "Our Baby"(RIP), Catalina 22
Posts: 876
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Yes, because Sammies with gun are just a couple of nuts from overseas! Canadians would be an invasion.

HA!!!!
__________________
Fish
"Behind every great man there is a woman, rolling her eyes."
But not for long! Now she's gone!
and peace and tranquility reign forever!
1969 Morgan 40 Cruising Ketch
Fishman_Tx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 15:58   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Smithfield Va.
Boat: '72 Tanzer 28 "Her Idea"
Posts: 320
No, that would be an invasion, eh?
__________________
1972 Tanzer 28 "Her Idea"
zopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 17:04   #83
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoPowers View Post

I'd personally like to see the UN get involved rather than a western coalition led by the U.S. After the last decade I think we are a little tired of being the world's policemen (self-appointed or not). It could be a great training opportunity for some of the lesser navies of the world.

Frank
Why does it always have to be the US?

Well, because we always take care of this stuff. Everyone expects it I guess. That way they have someone to blame and it ain't themselves. Win-win.

That stuff is ending and there is going to be a lot of sorry, hungry, mad people in the world.

And since most all to of the first world supports gun control then why don't they simply take all the guns away from all the Somalis (and others - but Somalia could be a "showcase" ). That would solve it right away.

It would work easily. No one inside the borders could have a "gun", no one.
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2010, 17:58   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bundaberg, Australia
Boat: 57ft Steel Expedition Vessel
Posts: 173
Nice Ship Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
passive resistance,simple yet effective,safe room see;


STORY HIGHLIGHTS
  • The vessel MV Beluga Fortune was held captive for one day
  • Crew locked themselves in a panic room, shipping firm CEO says
  • Naval forces come to rescue as crew of 16 unharmed
This is really quite smart ship design. I steel room with emergency controls and full communication gear. The ability to completely isolate from the rest of the ship and therefore be isolated from angry/scared people with guns. The cost to put a room like this in a ship must be significantly less than the cost of increased piracy insurance premiums or ransoms.

Essentially it leaves the pirates walking around a big steel boat with nothing to intimidate, no ability to move it (provided engine and fuel are disabled) and the longer they stay there the higher the chance they will get caught. This does lead into the lacklustre topic of NATO just taking their guns off them and sending them home. If they were caught on-board with guns it would be nice if some type of prosecution could happen, but this would need a capable government in the home state (not the US).

And as for the example of fishermen coming along side to sell their wares, this could be confirmed simply by seeing if they are holding a tuna or an automatic assault weapon in there hand, not to many commercial fishermen using firearms to catch fish...
__________________
Dame.n.Jess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 04:04   #85
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Well, because we always take care of this stuff. Everyone expects it I guess. That way they have someone to blame and it ain't themselves. Win-win.
Well theres a lot of views that the US doesnt do that, that it merely protects its own interests ,and a lot of people would quite like them to not interfere. Somalia is a case in point, everyone interfered. ( economically or other wise).

Its a sad fact that many americans thinks the US is fixing the world and many others think they are destroying it.


Quote:
And as for the example of fishermen coming along side to sell their wares, this could be confirmed simply by seeing if they are holding a tuna or an automatic assault weapon in there hand, not to many commercial fishermen using firearms to catch fish...
Can we finally put to bed this nonsense that a single sailor armed with a gun can defend himeself against these pirates.

It simply doesnt withstand any rational inspection

(a) Where do you get the weapon in the first place, and have you carried it around the world, ( with all that hassle) so are to arrive in the Gulf of Aden, please.

(b) Since all your likely to have at best is a shotgun or small calibre rifle ( anything else will get you arrested elsewhere, what real damage can you do.

(c) Your opponents are not backyard robbers, they have fought gunbattles with western armed forces ( they havent won or course) . They are not put off by a single man with a gun

(d) They have probaly killed people, you havent, you may not have even used a gun in anger ever, When the times comes it isnt like Rambo( I have guns I hunt, I'd never get into a firefight with multiple armed enemies, no way)

(e) Sure you get one or two shots off, Grp isnt noted for its ability to stop AK47s not to mention RPG;s. Sooner or later you end up dead, very very dead.

(f) And the worst thing is the next yacht gets comprehensively shot up first because of your actions. ( more people die).

PLease this US frontiers man nonsense of defending yourself if simply that, nonsense. Its impractical, doesnt work and gets you dead. Lets park it.

Dave
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 04:46   #86
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

PLease this US frontiers man nonsense of defending yourself if simply that, nonsense. Its impractical, doesnt work and gets you dead. Lets park it.

Dave
Well, why don't you go do the Gulf of Aden and then tell us your experiences?

Till then your BS is just the same BS as all the others.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 04:49   #87
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Well, why don't you go do the Gulf of Aden and then tell us your experiences?

Till then your BS is just the same BS as all the others.
Thats rather irrelevant mark, one of three things happens

(A) I galey sail through , what pirates you say

(B) I have a scare, but live for another day ( Ive had a few of thoese sailing)

(C) You hear about me via the BBC.

None of these events change the case of a single cruiser with a gun, sure "no country is neutral after being invaded", but to my knowledge no-one whoese sailed thoses waters in a cruiser has reccomended beng armed and I talked to two such people personally myself. ( other then the usual , im angry and hence the nuke the pirates response)

I am not for any minute putting myself up as an expert, but I know guns and I know that they are not helpful. nor practical in that situation. Difficult to acquire, difficult to sail with and in the hands of a untrained or a self trained non-professional, very poor at doing anything useful.

Ogh, and when I talked about defending yourself, I was specifically tallking about the use of firearms, defending yourself by sailing in convoy, adopting stealthy techniques, avoiding known areas, etc. absolutly.

Dave
__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 05:21   #88
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,205
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate

Speaking as a former hunter of deer, wild boar etc, (I was raised with guns in the Indian sub-continent_... and also as a former 'RN marksman'... I stand by GoBoatings statement....
I know how hard it is to hit a fast moving target thats jinking...
add in your own boats roll and pitch which increases the difficulty factor greatly to the extent that,.... you actually hitting your target is more a case of luck than accuracy...
Thats why these guys love automatics.... just spay all over and a few will reach the target... as for RPG's.. doubt they'd waste them on a yacht... they're for the 'Big Boats' they know they can hit...
Its one thing to stand in a gun range blasting away at standing targets or in a field blasting clay pigeons outa the sky... predictable crap..
This is a whole new ball game... your plastic fantastic aint gonna cut the mustard... its all very well saying "If I want to sail there its my right"... but then thats your choice... the Somali Pirate or the Southern route.... if both of these make your ass pucker... don't sail there...
Never understand folk who put themselves deliberately in harms way then expect someone else to come put out the fire...
Just don't expect 'Mommy State' to wipe your nose/ass all the way...

The most logical solution is for the Yemini's and Saudi's teaming up and organising a Patrol boat escort once a month or so along their coastlines...
They run patrols anyway so it would be cost effective....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 05:32   #89
Registered User
 
NotQuiteLost's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Paradise (better known to most people as: Philippines)
Boat: 65' Custom Steel Ketch
Posts: 322
Images: 4
I absolutely reject the notion that somehow if cruisers defend themselves, even if it results in their death, it will heighten aggression against later cruisers. Piracy isn't about terror or power, it's about profit. There's no profit in a sunk boat with swiss cheese'd corpses aboard, in fact it's the exact opposite that those people want due to the negative press it would bring. Negative press leads to two certainties: decreased traffic (bad for potential profit) and military intervention (REALLY bad for potential profit).
NotQuiteLost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 06:05   #90
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
The most logical solution is for the Yemini's and Saudi's teaming up and organising a Patrol boat escort once a month or so along their coastlines...
Correct a mundo, convoys were how historically merchant shipping has always protected itself from pirates. Its works then, it can work now. Other wise all we can do is stay away,

Quote:
I absolutely reject the notion that somehow if cruisers defend themselves, even if it results in their death, it will heighten aggression against later cruisers. Piracy isn't about terror or power, it's about profit. There's no profit in a sunk boat with swiss cheese'd corpses aboard, in fact it's the exact opposite that those people want due to the negative press it would bring. Negative press leads to two certainties: decreased traffic (bad for potential profit) and military intervention (REALLY bad for potential profit).
All the evidence is the exact opposite, Even now the most recent UN reports says that the pirates are roaming over a bigger area and becoming increasingly agressive as a result of the Western Navel intervention. These poeple are not easily put out of this activity and theyll not give up without a fight.

IN all conflicts, armed intervention results in a racheting up of agression. Firefights, between individual cruisers and a boat load of pirates will almost exclusively add up to the death of the cruiser, a few of those ( arguably by dieing the cruisers itsnt being successful) will convince the pirates to shoot first.

Anyway it doesnt matter, even if you shoot first , theres too many, they have automatics and your just a lone man with a pop-gun. The outcome is enivitable. ( not to mention the difficulties in acquiring and legally sailing with the firearm).

Dave
__________________

__________________
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Why Would Anyone Want to Circumnavigate Non-Stop ? psteele235 Cruising News & Events 52 28-08-2010 12:11
Next Stop - Georgia lorenzo b Atlantic & the Caribbean 6 31-05-2010 21:40
is this still a non-stop circumnavigation? oceanbluesail09 General Sailing Forum 2 28-07-2008 03:38
HELP STOP the DROPS GordMay The Library 10 20-08-2005 16:35



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.