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Old 31-08-2013, 00:47   #91
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
Kenomac. I'd appreciate if you can explain. If you can cite actual evidence that would be most helpful.
Mike,
I gave you an example in my post, but you edited it out when you responded. It's sufficient to say that we respectfully disagree on this topic.

Ken
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Old 31-08-2013, 00:53   #92
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In the words of the wise philosopher J Prine- "Blow up your TV throw away your paper Move to the country, build you a home Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches Try an find Jesus on your own."

But seriously the environmental predicament started when greed and ability trumped environmental awareness. Today's generation does it just as bad as any other. Though we might have the 1st world environment in check we are poisoning our bodies in the same way. If we can change our mind set we can change our approach. At least if you are living or wanting to live on a boat you have to start moving towards a minimalistic life style, generally.

"Having kids is the most selfish thing you can do..." I'm still trying to figure that out. Where is the self sacrifice in only looking after your self...?
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Old 31-08-2013, 01:30   #93
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

Food grows where water flows. No water, no food. No food, no people.

Ogallala Aquifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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It would take hundreds to thousands of years of rainfall to replace the groundwater in the depleted aquifer. In 1950 irrigated cropland covered 250,000 acres. With the use of center-pivot irrigation, nearly three million acres of land were irrigated.[14] In some places in the Texas Panhandle, the water table has been drained (dewatered). "Vast stretches of Texas farmland lying over the aquifer no longer support irrigation. In west-central Kansas, up to a fifth of the irrigated farmland along a 100-mile swath of the aquifer has already gone dry."
Oh, and the Goodwill is great. "got $20 in my pocket.." My daughter enjoys going clothes shopping there. What good is donating, if nobody buys what you donate?
Just like recycling, you must buy recycled products to complete the circle.
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Old 31-08-2013, 05:33   #94
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Mike,
I gave you an example in my post, but you edited it out when you responded. It's sufficient to say that we respectfully disagree on this topic.
Fair enough Ken, although I re-read your post. You are suggesting that we are (or can be) living sustainably and in balance with the Earth's systems. I simply say the evidence that I'm aware of all points in the opposite direction. We have exceeded, and continue to exceed, the planet's capacity to recover from our exploitations. As a species, all evidence that I'm aware of shows we are not living sustainably on this planet.

Regardless, you are still a good example of how to live more sustainably, no matter what your motivation . I strive to do the same. I no longer have the fire-in-the-belly to try and save the world. All I can do is change myself. If by doing so I provide another example to others, then that's great. But like you, I'm not motivated to save the world. I just want to reduce my personally impact on our global ecosystem.

That's enough for me.
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Old 31-08-2013, 06:31   #95
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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That's what I was looking for. Thanks. But there's really no need to be calling others who don't work with their hands parasites as you have done on your posts. I work with my hands but don't consider others like my friend Tony the engineer, or Dave the Bond broker who both ride their bikes to work everyday parasites. I guess in your world, physicians and nurses are also considered parasites? FYI: That's a bad attitude that just turns other people off. I also disagree with those who insist on keeping score on the environment issues with regards to "footprints." 'Just makes them sound like Al Gore. It's best to stop keeping score and just appreciate what others have done.

And who says I have residences in New England, California and the Med? Just because I pass through a place... doesn't mean I own a residence there. Do you own a residence every where you travel? Our boat moves around... it's not tied to a dock.
To All,

The comment about parasites wasn't intended as a cheap shot against people who contribute in a material way to society through whatever function they perform in their occupation, except maybe Wall Street. While I do believe the statement I made is literally a truthful one, I don't literally believe it and it's purpose was not to denigrate anyone else, but rather to respond directly about what it is I try to do in my own personal life.

I also am not a scorekeeper and frankly, though I could keep going on and on about things I do or have done personally, I wanted to keep it simple and address Kenomac directly to show that I have done my part as much as he has done his, tit for tat. He has done his part BTW and should garner our respect accordingly, these are real tangible effiorts he has made.

Kenomac, you frequently move you 53' boat from California to New England? Not sure how that works, but when people list multiple locations on their avatar I take it to mean they have multiple residences. When people have multiple residences I figure at least one of those is vacant all the time which is a bit conspicuous in my mind, so that's what that was all about.
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Old 31-08-2013, 06:36   #96
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

Coupla thoughts: I'm glad to see Delancy get off that personal high horse he rode in on. Moreover I think it's easy for men to say no kids, as we don't have that itch under our saddleblankets like most of the gals do. But if smart folks don't have kids (because we're smart), what happens to the gene pool? Still, ya know it wasn't my idea as I was 43 before I had my first. My ex is a gynecologist among other things; I kinda thought she had the contraception thing handled ... but no.

Also Delancy's citing all the Malthus and commons stuff kinda sorta assumes we all don't know that stuff. A faulty assumption. Most of us learned it in school as he did, or failing that, picked it up right here in countless CF threads.

But my real question goes back to the issue of young folks jumping the oldsters for screwing things up for them. That's where this got testy. I'll restate: Mean greedy rich people and their corporations hire lobbyists to pressure, intimidate, extort elected politicians. Nuthin new there and it continues.

I'd guess that most CFers are way out front of the average person on the planet in personal efforts to be as green as we can be. Wot I wanta know is how we really can change things. What are the angry young folks going to do about the issue that the old farts didn't think of or try already? No answers have been proffered.

I suggested shooting the bad guys but Nimble Jack seemed to not recognize that as joking sarcasm. I have suggested that voting the scoundrels out of office is pie in the sky. Just saying otherwise doesn't cut it. Armed insurrection? Some say it's coming.

Here I refer to the U.S. In other parts of the world, all three of these solutions have proven quite effective.
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Old 31-08-2013, 06:37   #97
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Because of your accusatory tone I would ordinarily cite this posting as a classic example of the type I describe in my original posting of Liar, liar, pants on fire! and dismiss it as such.
Because of you manipulative tone and manner, I am considering reporting your post and clicking the 'disregard' button. Rejoice, for you are to be the first ever in both regards!

;-)

I did not find that post / poster accusatory. They expressed a view and were up to point.

Please, if you have some private games going on, keep them away from threads that discuss actual issues. The way it is, you are adding complication to an already complex subject.

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Old 31-08-2013, 06:44   #98
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Well I've had enough of this, so I'm going to get in my car and drive the hour plus to the boat. I will probably stop along the way for few beers and dinner in some air conditioned place. I may not be able to eat all of my meal as it probably has enough calories for a whole day plus, but might have a salad with that has lettuce that got shipped all the way from South America.

Tomorrow I want to go south, but the wind is suppose to be out of the south, so I expert some motoring. But that is good for the envio as I will have hot water as a result instead of running the engine to just make hot water. I expert to have some food out of the frig along the way, but that has been kept cold with a solar panel that the Chinese made while polluting their lands, so that counts as green.

I probably will take my dinghy in once I get to wherever, using my outboard that drips gas all the time while running. I could probably fix the outboard, but it has been running so much better since it started dripping. I could get a new outboard, but that seems wasteful so the dripping outboard seems to be the better green choice.

The forecast says that should be able to sail back on Monday, but I've heard that lie before. But if it does workout I probably will need to use the big chemically make sail, but it is a sail so it must really be green no matter what was used to make it.

I was looking at the lawn the other day because a section needs to be reseeded. But that would involve fertilizers, so I'm going to just let the weeds continue to have it. That way I will have done something green again.

Now that I think of it there are green choices everywhere.

PS - you guys need to lighten up
I just read this again, cracks me up every time!
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Old 31-08-2013, 06:57   #99
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Because of you manipulative tone and manner, I am considering reporting your post and clicking the 'disregard' button. Rejoice, for you are to be the first ever in both regards!

;-)

I did not find that post / poster accusatory. They expressed a view and were up to point.

Please, if you have some private games going on, keep them away from threads that discuss actual issues. The way it is, you are adding complication to an already complex subject.

b.
Respectfully, no games here. The guy said "talk is cheap" and I all have done "is expell hot air", not exaclty what I would think could be construed as addressing me in a congenial manner. Hence the tone of my response.
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Old 31-08-2013, 07:29   #100
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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"Having kids is the most selfish thing you can do..." I'm still trying to figure that out. Where is the self sacrifice in only looking after your self...?
There's having kids, then there's having a family. You don't have to procreate to have a family. Hence the logic that if you procreate you aren't so much interested in having a family so much as you are interested in passing along your scared DNA because it is better than someone else's. In a world of finite resources burdened by over population this is considered a selfish act.

I my view the fact that you choose to have kids, start an adoptive family, or choose not to is your personal choice and none of my damn business. I can only hope our goverment continues to support this view and allows us to make our own choices.
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Old 31-08-2013, 07:34   #101
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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(...) What are the angry young folks going to do about the issue that the old farts didn't think of or try already? No answers have been proffered.(...)
Are they young?

Well, I was young when I was 15, possibly till I was 25. At 16 I left the nest.

Now today, in the country where we are, (young?) people move out when they are 35. Are they young? Well, in some parts of the world people become grandparents around 35.

Now, are they angry?

Where we are, the rate of unemployment in the youngest group is 60%. You can't see them protesting in the street. You can't see them starting small businesses. They are passive.

Now, what are they going to do?

They are going to do nothing. They are the actual 'lost generation'. It seems abundant food and secure environment removed any incentives to act.

The fact is they are not even interested in talking the green issues. They do not read, they do not research, they do not ask. They are not interested in.

So this is my 2 Euro-cents on what they are going to do.

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Old 31-08-2013, 07:43   #102
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Thanks for your contributions on a personal level for making the world a better place, I respectfully decline the promotion to Captain due to my lack of qualifications, I don't have all the answers.

However, in an effort to elucidate a discussion about what I believe to be a very profoundly important topic, I ask that you all consider that given or current Human overpopulation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia of the planet, on which we find ourselves the dominate species, we are on the brink of a Malthusian catastrophe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as first described in 1798 at the dawn industrial revolution by Thomas Malthus as a result of what is considered a Tragedy of the commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States, in an understandable effort to secure strategic resources at the end of WW2, implemented economic and political policies which did more to ensure the unequal distribution of resources than other country in the last century. Second after that would be England (study Winston Churchill and Britain's switch from coal to oil power for their navy) after that look to the USSR and China.

What a great idea, let's just burn all the oil up, we've got more than we could ever use in a hundred lifetimes. Maybe we won't think it was such a great idea after the effects of Peak oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and we can't just zip around in airplanes to exotic rum filled vacations anymore, that won't be any fun.

You might be thinking "Gee Delancy, you're a real buzz kill. The problems are so big and I am so small. Doesn't look like there is anything I can do about it except feel bad about perpetuating outmoded thinking and live my life til I die"

In response I would quote a friend who always commented when things got hairy "Don't just do something, sit there!" Studies of lifeboat survivors and people stuck starving on mountains has shown that one of the greatest threats to people in survival situations is their own apathy.

FFS Vote! Your vote does count and will make a difference. On a municipal, state, and federal level you and your friends have the ability to initiate policies that can make a difference.

The writing on the wall that started 200 years ago never stopped. To understand how further how you can make a difference you can take inspiration from Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia written in 1968 and by Buckminster Fuller and from Small Is Beautiful - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia by EF Schumacheer in 1973.

Some of you multihull fans might have heard of a California Hippie named Jim Brown. He is an example of a sailor who made a difference when he designed a Constant Camber fishing boat for the developing world called "Sib" which utilized modest technology to efficiently build sail power vessels from local materials to benefit impoverished fisherman and free them from a dependence on expensive gasoline powered outboards.

In addition to many great ideas on this thread about how to make a difference, on a personal level as sailors and as cruisers, there is more that we can do. Next time you are in the market to buy a bunch of oil that has been shaped into a RIB, maybe consider finding your local friendly boatbuilder and hire him to build you a sweet little rowing/sailing dink made out of materials sourced from this continent such as Douglas fir plywood, White Oak, or Western Red Cedar responsibly harvested from sustainable forestry.

"But I downsized and can't fit one on my boat that is big enough to comfortable row, sail, and carry all my junk" you say, that's ok, there are many practical nesting dinghy designs to suit your needs. You will inspire delight in your neighbors as you sunset cruise the anchorage instead of annoying them with your outboard while at the same time benefiting your own health and happiness.

If you are wondering whether you should replace your Teak decks, don't! Leave the poor Teak trees alone they have enough problems as it is. Forget plantations, they obviously don't meet the demand, and your contribution to it only encourages poaching. Vernacular architecture in Thailand is disappearing because people are selling traditional hundreds-year-old Teak homes to be shipped oversees and sold as "reclaimed" wood.

Before the age of steam the great tradition of American boatbuilding was born out through the use of native wood species, as an example Robinia pseudoacacia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia also known as Black Locust is harder, denser, and equally rot resistant than teak. If you live in the Northeast it literally grows on trees right outside your front door. Beautiful honey brown color to boot!

If we can survive the next hundred years or so, we can maybe get off this rock and go start messing thing up on a galactic scale but until that time our survival depends on the things we do here and now. If I have one goal in this life it is to at least know that I died trying.
I love this one.

And the quoted info in Wiki is, to me, real frightening. Many people say Wiki is not serious, but many more do not even get this far. I look around and the info holds true in our part of the world.

If only the "young" generation were more willing to read, listen and ask questions. The point is they are not.

Regards,
barnakiel
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Old 31-08-2013, 07:52   #103
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

ok ok ok i admit it.i am old. i fouled your world by walking uphill10 miles to and from school every day in hip deep snow. i didnt even drive a car until i was 18.. we grew our veggies and my uncle even had an apple farm with GOOD apples--yeah he used pesticides but his apples didnt have worms or bugs to reduce his crop yield. he also used equipment he found on his acreage--sprayers and trucks.didnt buy new. he was still brokeass farmer.. he had a sailboat--no engine... prolly counteracted his wondrous use of lead arsenate to kill bugs...he had 4 very intelligent and productive daughters---smith college students, now one even is a tenured professor at yale.go figger a woman can do something productive other than having kids...rodlmao..
as for me--i had only one kid --he turned out to be a slug living off whomever he can find to so do--- ok i shoulda not had a kid..lol guess who figgered that out !! but he does have a great excuse----and that is a nother looong story and irrelevant--seems humans find excuses to not produce--is easier than finding something to to make income generated
as for sailing----i bought a boat first with no engine...then i eventually moved up to this boat after having many others....so my boat needs old dead stuff to run far against current and with only small breezes. also know how to drift, and i know how to be happy.

our kids today dont have to walk uphill 10 miles each way in snow hip deep...why---we did that for em, didnt we!!! they also do not know h0w to be happy, as happiness is found within the spirit of ones own corpus--they no longer know how to reach that inner self.

funny how when i was in 4th grade i read in newspaper, world telegram and sun, NYC paper--that we were going to have a rise in water level by 2025....ok...now those same scientists are saying we are right on schedule...... if they knew this when i was 4th grade fodder, why now is it that we have this dire problem with our environment...suddenly this rise in water level means we have a warming planet---but where is this proof of warming--take earths temp-is still same, they say ok algore is a fraud, but yes the earth s changing. we DO live in changing environment--as we have since we were born.

we used to be taught that in school...

now they teach the kids that the fewer than 78 boats in coronado moorings are dumping 410,000 gallons weekly of raw sewage into sd bay--funny but that is the number of gallons per week that coronado dumps into sd bay---- hmmm.....navy and heavy industry in sd bay are completely discounted as causes...go figger--it is all due to the recreational boats dumping alleged raw sewage into a dirty bay ...... hmmmmm

is it really a positive step that our offspring can play video games 24/7/365 without regard for others in this world....kids used to have body tone..now kids do not walk nor play outside nor have any curiosity as to what is out in the world.
how did this happen-----guess--it is due to parents ceasing to have interaction and time with the kids ..... what happened to work ethic...gone....... rarely found in anyone anymore--usa is no longer a manufacturing nation--is why there is no smog anymore--go figger..
when it was time to figger out if usa should outsource everything or keep some manufacturing, usa chose to ditch being a producing nation in exchange for being a service industry nation---not a good step--we used to be essentially independent--not anymore--this is not a positive change.

true we dont have s much smog--but hat has been the price--our nations independence.

this is not acknowledged, is it. usa doesnt even run its own ports anymore..other nations run usa ports --so this is better than independence??? it certainly has an impact on our economy as we have to pay for services instead of keeping those jobs within usa they are farmed out to the nations that run us.....
we have huge stuff happening in our world-- we can and do concentrate on things that make no sense.

only things we can do is be responsible for our own actions. to force all to comply with strict regulations that will not have an impact on reality is ridiculous.
watch your own stuff and be responsible for your actions.
treat the world as if it were your own front doorstep. it is..go figger..and now we we have to teach this to folks who should have known this from early in their lives--not being taught by parents anymore---
so why are parents no longer teaching their own kids--it is not the teachers responsibility to toilet train your 6 yr old because you are too lazy to do it y0urself.
yes this happens. this is progress????

for all the technological and other alleged progresses--all superficial, we have so many negatives, as everything has equal and opposite reaction happening--no one thinks of that, do they--every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
give kids technology and they have no body tone and no physical activity.

we can place blame on others--is a typical addictive personality trait---lol so --- what i ask--
when the hell are parents gonna return to being that--parents--they aint pulling it off at all...not teaching kids what they need to know in their lives and blaming others for their failings...the failings are personal--each fail belongs to someone, not someone else own it and go forward
we can argue all over the place about how this and how that----BUT when will folks take responsibility for their own actions--when that restarts, maybe the earth can have a chance---each and every soul on earth is responsible for their patch--take that responsibility and go forward---

we cannot do a thing to prevent many of the changes that this earth undergoes--so why worry about it except to have responsibility for your own actions. that doesnt mean turn your back on it and it will go away--- deal with what is happening realistically. making laws that do nothing is not how to do anything..
telling folks they HAVE to do stuff isnt how to take care of it either.
problems of this earth changing are just that-- changes we need to deal with, not just talk about---so how is making a list of how to do stuff going to help our world ----isnt. mebbe you will follow your own list--that is good.

but how are human souls gonna change the changes earth is making--we are not. all we can do is monitor ourselves and do what we consider correct activity for our personal environment--like not pooping on our own front doorstep--that would be a good start.


hate to say this, but when we mass produced smog by manufacturing, we also had higher employment rates--folks could go to work as high school kids working on an assembly line--dont think that doesnt help kids know what they do not ant to do all their lives.lol...as well as helping gnp of this once awesome nation-- i know th e nations to which we shipped our manufacturing businesses are doing much better economically than usa is---look at the gnp stats and compare. oh.i forgot--the stats have been skewed to present the opposing alleged facts..lol....
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Old 31-08-2013, 08:14   #104
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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I love this one.

And the quoted info in Wiki is, to me, real frightening. Many people say Wiki is not serious, but many more do not even get this far. I look around and the info holds true in our part of the world.

If only the "young" generation were more willing to read, listen and ask questions. The point is they are not.

Regards,
barnakiel
Little thread drift here, I absolutely love Wikipedia! Back in the day I see to read hundreds of books a years but nowadays Wikipedia is my window to the world.

Granted, it's open source so can't believe everything you read but if you click on the edit button you can see who has contributed, often times it is written by college students working on their dissertation about whatever esoteric topic they are studying and benefit directly from their education.

If you are going offshore you can download the entire contents of Wikipedia onto your computer to take traveling with you as a reference. Valuable stuff! You can read about how to do it here.

Wikipediaatabase download - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 31-08-2013, 10:08   #105
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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"Now they teach the kids that the fewer than 78 boats in coronado moorings are dumping 410,000 gallons weekly of raw sewage into sd bay"

WOW! How much are they eating there? They must be on food stamps... I could never afford to buy that much food.

"is it really a positive step that our offspring can play video games 24/7/365 without regard for others in this world....kids used to have body tone..now kids do not walk nor play outside nor have any curiosity as to what is out in the world. how did this happen-----guess--it is due to parents ceasing to have interaction and time with the kids ..... what happened to work ethic...gone....... rarely found in anyone anymore--usa is no longer a manufacturing nation--is why there is no smog anymore--go figger.."

Excellent!

"when it was time to figger out if usa should outsource everything or keep some manufacturing, usa chose to ditch being a producing nation in exchange for being a service industry nation---not a good step--we used to be essentially independent--not anymore--this is not a positive change."

Excellent again!

"USA doesn't even run its own ports anymore..other nations run usa ports --so this is better than independence??? it certainly has an impact on our economy as we have to pay for services instead of keeping those jobs within usa they are farmed out to the nations that run us.....
we have huge stuff happening in our world-- we can and do concentrate on things that make no sense."

You go girl!!

"only things we can do is be responsible for our own actions. to force all to comply with strict regulations that will not have an impact on reality is ridiculous. watch your own stuff and be responsible for your actions."
treat the world as if it were your own front doorstep. it is..go figger..and now we we have to teach this to folks who should have known this from early in their lives--not being taught by parents anymore---
so why are parents no longer teaching their own kids--it is not the teachers responsibility to toilet train your 6 yr old because you are too lazy to do it y0urself. yes this happens. this is progress????"

Brilliant!

"-- what i ask--
when the hell are parents gonna return to being that--parents--they aint pulling it off at all...not teaching kids what they need to know in their lives and blaming others for their failings...the failings are personal--each fail belongs to someone, not someone else own it and go forward
we can argue all over the place about how this and how that----BUT when will folks take responsibility for their own actions--when that restarts, maybe the earth can have a chance---each and every soul on earth is responsible for their patch--take that responsibility and go forward---"

we cannot do a thing to prevent many of the changes that this earth undergoes--so why worry about it except to have responsibility for your own actions. that doesnt mean turn your back on it and it will go away--- deal with what is happening realistically. making laws that do nothing is not how to do anything.."

Keep telling it like it is sister!

"telling folks they HAVE to do stuff isnt how to take care of it either.
problems of this earth changing are just that-- changes we need to deal with, not just talk about---so how is making a list of how to do stuff going to help our world ----isnt. mebbe you will follow your own list--that is good.

hate to say this, but when we mass produced smog by manufacturing, we also had higher employment rates--folks could go to work as high school kids working on an assembly line--dont think that doesnt help kids know what they do not ant to do all their lives.lol...as well as helping gnp of this once awesome nation-- i know th e nations to which we shipped our manufacturing businesses are doing much better economically than usa is---look at the gnp stats and compare. oh.i forgot--the stats have been skewed to present the opposing alleged facts..lol...."

You red my mind.
Truly the best, most thoughtful post I've read in the past year! Keep up the good work and enjoy the sunshine down there in Mexico. Yeah! Old farts rule!
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