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Old 29-08-2013, 14:22   #31
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Spoiled brats is what they are. I was alive back in the early 1960s and know and remember what it was like to live in Southern California during the smog alerts when you're eyes and chest burned all day from the brown/grey haze and saw all the factories puking the black smoke along with the refineries. I also remember when a river caught fire from all the pollution somewhere in the east coast. Things are far, far improved today with the environment having been cleaned up significantly. If you don't believe me... stand behind my 1981 308GTSi sometime.... It'll bring tears to your eyes.
Yes, but the issue is that your generation deferred the costs and true expenses of that cleanup onto younger generations. Sure the smog alerts are gone, but you still made more money then you should have making the goods that produced the smog along with other environmental pollution. Now we have to deal with trying to make a reasonable profit while fixing the damage you caused. Large sums of tax dollars go to cleanup the rivers that catch on fire and we have higher taxes as a results (I know this is not the only reason for higher taxes but it does contribute). By the way, that river was in Ohio. Meanwhile you can claim a lower tax rate and have devised schemes and loop holes to avoid paying taxes on those profits.

Our cost of living has increased largely to deal with fixing the mistakes of generations past. One example of this would be the gas taxes. We now pay more in taxes per gallon of gas then you paid for gas period. A large portion of those taxes go to cleaning up after spills at gas stations. Yet the people who benefited from those low cost of gasoline and who profited from selling that gasoline, members of your generation and older, are largely retired and already have amassed their wealth while the rest of us struggle. You don't have to commute to work any longer so it doesn't hit you as hard. Yet you still b@#$h about the cost of a gallon of milk when you pull up in your Ferrari then drive back to your $1.5 million yacht.

And by the way, can there be a better example of my point then someone with a $1.5 million yacht who drives Ferrari bragging about how much contamination his exhaust puts out?

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The only "kids" (if that's you want call a 20-30 year old still living at home with mom and dad) that I know of who are unemployed are the lazy-ass ones who expect something for nothing... with their parents seemingly in total agreement with their lifestyle choice and worthless, bogus college degrees in subjects like Human Sexuality and Social Archeology.
I call BS! I am 38 years old and know many people my age and younger who are struggling. These are not just people with "bogus college degrees"; they have degrees in engineer, hard sciences, accounting, finance, etc. They want to work to support their families, buy houses, and do the rest of the "American Dream" BS we were promised would come if we just "worked hard". However, since your generation greedily took inflated values for your property, refinanced your life styles to the hilt, while shirking any responsibility for the environment, standard of living of those in your employ (i.e. cutting health care, benefits, pensions, etc. while not allowing wages to rise in comparison), paying for your own health care, we are left with deflated wages in real dollars when compared to our buying power.

I also don't think studying subjects that don't immediately translate to jobs is "worthless". I remember being told that this country valued education for education's sake. Studying subjects like the humanities (music, art, history, anthropology, archeology, etc.) used to be consider a noble thing because people did it for the knowledge, not profit. Now, your consumer driven generation, only values degrees that result in making money. More of your "he who dies with the most toys wins" philosophy that brought us bank and loan scandals, Enron, etc.

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Don't tell me everything is my fault.... I ride a bicycle over 10,000 miles per year and drive a car only a couple thousand miles. Meanwhile, I watch as mommies all over the USA continue to shuttle their babies (ages 4-30) to and from school and sports in the family SUV instead of using the city provided school buses.
And how did those numbers look when you were working full time? When you were starting your career and didn't have the luxury of time? Or trying to balance the responsibilities of a young family with starting a career, buying a house and trying to keep up with the wealth of the previous generation? Or did you not have to worry about these things?
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:22   #32
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

If you look at it from purely a 1st world persepective, things are going downhill. If you look at it from an entire world perspective, it's getting better on average. Go back 30-40 yrs ago and most of SE asia was living less than $1 day. While not to western levels, it's many times that even accounting for inflation today.

Especially in North America, our views are skewed by an unusual period of prosperity that came about after WWII. Europe and Japans industrial bases were destroyed in the war. North America was the only major industrialized are left. We couldn't keep up with demand. By the 70's, Europe and Japan had largely rebuilt thier manufacturing base and you started to see it have an impact. In more recent decades, Asia has come on strong. Simple supply and demand. After the war huge demand and small supply meant plentiful high paying jobs. As demand for rebuilding waned and industrial supply rose, jobs became more scarce and lower paying.

Then again if you throw out the actual dollars earned and look at the stuff we have, a wealfare family of today has it much better than an upper middle class family from the 50's.
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:23   #33
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

That was about the economic woes that people were complaining about.

Environmental is a different issue.
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:24   #34
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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consuming less energy ( gas, water production, pollution) lowers the overall energy demand, allows developing countries access to such commodities and lets such societies improve their standard of living.

dave
Then why not give all the developing countries a boost-up by unplugging your computer?
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:36   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Because this items , are both finite and require recovery. consuming less energy ( gas, water production, pollution) lowers the overall energy demand, allows developing countries access to such commodities and lets such societies improve their standard of living.

Societies with high standards of living tend to have negative replacement rates.

The US could easily introduce efficiencies in energy consumption that would have little impact on standards of life , yet significantly reduce world demand.

dave
You said we use 8 times the water. I am saying that is a product of where I live(something like 20 in. Of rain for July) not overconsumption. The question was if I don't take a shower how does that help the hypothetical person in India?
Now if I was talking about energy your response would have been appropriate.
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:38   #36
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Then why not give all the developing countries a boost-up by unplugging your computer?
its an iMac, its a thing of beauty, Hail Steve, Hail Steve, Hail.....
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:39   #37
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

Once, some woman got mad at me because I fed real meat to my dogs.

She said, "How dare you feed meat to your dogs, when there are starving children in the world?"

In return, I said, "You sick b-tch! I'm not feeding those kids to my dogs!"

She was not happy!

.
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Old 29-08-2013, 14:45   #38
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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You said we use 8 times the water. I am saying that is a product of where I live(something like 20 in. Of rain for July) not overconsumption. The question was if I don't take a shower how does that help the hypothetical person in India?
Now if I was talking about energy your response would have been appropriate.
One cannot just look at an individual person or region , god knows , where I am , were awash with water. Thats not the point. Balance is the point. To get all that water to your taps so you can consume costs energy , a lot of energy. That energy is currently generated by in the main burning hydrocarbons.

If the US reduces is energy consumption by employing efficiencies, that reduces the demand on energy sources, that lowers its price, that allows India to buy more and generate a bit more energy, that extracts and processes more water and allows an Idian to have maybe a regular shower.

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Old 29-08-2013, 14:58   #39
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Originally Posted by JK n Smitty View Post
"Yes, but the issue is that your generation deferred the costs and true expenses of that cleanup onto younger generations. Sure the smog alerts are gone, but you still made more money then you should have making the goods that produced the smog along with other environmental pollution. Now we have to deal with trying to make a reasonable profit while fixing the damage you caused."

Hey sonny... I was 6 years old and in 1st grade during the smog alerts. Hardly my fault.

"Members of your generation and older, are largely retired and already have amassed their wealth while the rest of us struggle. You don't have to commute to work any longer so it doesn't hit you as hard. Yet you still b@#$h about the cost of a gallon of milk when you pull up in your Ferrari then drive back to your $1.5 million yacht."

What the heck are you talking about? I'm lactose and B.S. intolerant. Get off your ass and you can enjoy some of the finer things in life too. And stop complaining.... it's not very becoming.

"And by the way, can there be a better example of my point then someone with a $1.5 million yacht who drives Ferrari bragging about how much contamination his exhaust puts out?"

I've only been able to put 200 miles on the 308 during the past 20 years; you're probably a bigger polluter than me today. Mostly hang onto the car as a keepsake to remind me of the time I was in the entertainment business. But please come stand behind it anytime so I can demonstrate the difficulty in breathing in the fumes from a 1980's car.


"I call BS! I am 38 years old and know many people my age (edit)They want to work to support their families, buy houses, and do the rest of the "American Dream" BS we were promised would come if we just "worked hard". However, since your generation greedily took inflated values for your property, refinanced your life styles to the hilt, while shirking any responsibility for the environment, standard of living of those in your employ."

Total B.S. No one promised you or us anything. You'll need to work hard for it just like I did. 'Never re-financed... was too busy paying down the mortgage so that I could go cruising.

"I also don't think studying subjects that don't immediately translate to jobs is "worthless". I remember being told that this country valued education for education's sake."

Then go out and try to get a decent job with one of your "noble" degrees. Be sure to let us know how it works out.

And how did those numbers look when you were working full time? When you were starting your career and didn't have the luxury of time? Or trying to balance the responsibilities of a young family with starting a career, buying a house and trying to keep up with the wealth of the previous generation? Or did you not have to worry about these things?

I worked 80 hours a week at a business I enjoyed. Had two kids and a HUGE house payment. 200K loan at 18% interest thanks to Jimmy Carter. What's your interest rate today? 3.5% Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo
Read some history books before you cast a stone next time.

Now, Let's get back to the environment issue being discussed.
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Old 29-08-2013, 15:04   #40
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

so here we are with boats and computers, which makes us part of the Haves

now the Haves start complaining about the Have Mores

then the Haves sitting around on their computers start complaining that people aren't doing anything to fix the problem

what a bunch of cry baby hypocrites we be
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Old 29-08-2013, 15:08   #41
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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what a bunch of cry baby hypocrites we be
well otherwise there would be no CF!
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Old 29-08-2013, 15:14   #42
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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its an iMac, its a thing of beauty, Hail Steve, Hail Steve, Hail.....
I saw his yacht while in Mallorca two months ago.... it looked like a parking garage with a drape running down the side. Hardly a thing one would call a beauty.

He should have stuck to computer design... I love using my iPad for navigation.
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Old 29-08-2013, 15:23   #43
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

A cruiser's guide to better environmental stewardship

1. Sail more; motor less.
2. Generate power with solar and wind rather than diesel.
3. Don't anchor in coral. Ever.
4. Use biodegradable, non-antibacterial soaps.
5. Eat at lower trophic levels whenever possible.
6. Avoid recreational use of internal combustion engines: kayak rather than jet ski; SUP rather than wake board.
7. Live in smaller spaces.
8. Use LED lighting whenever possible.
9. cool off with fans rather than air conditioning
10. no more spear fishing

And try to restrict the amount you breed, of course.
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Old 29-08-2013, 15:57   #44
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Once, some woman got mad at me because I fed real meat to my dogs.

She said, "How dare you feed meat to your dogs, when there are starving children in the world?"

In return, I said, "You sick b-tch! I'm not feeding those kids to my dogs!"

She was not happy!.
As the owner of a Great Dane that was large enough to actually eat small children (although he rarely did) this post in the middle of an otherwise pretty depressing thread completely cracked me up.

Thanks for lightening the discussion.

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Old 29-08-2013, 16:15   #45
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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(...) When considered as a demographic sailors are regarded generally as intelligent, highly educated, technically minded people with a higher than average environmental consciousness. (...)
Regarded by whom?

C'mon.

b.
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