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Old 01-09-2013, 05:29   #136
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I messed up my kids (so 1 says) so they don't want to have kids. So I made real contribution to the world. Plus there wouldn't be this grandkids thing to get in the way of my cruising plans
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:18   #137
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post

(...)

Most of all, learn to live with less, not more.
Agreed. A word of warning though:

The way societies are controlled today, over-consumption is promoted by both manufacturers and policy makers. In result, one that lives with less can be effectively seen as a no-citizen.

I know this first hand: when I was willing to work 60 hours weeks and take loans from banks, both employers and banks loved me. Now that I can do with 20 hours work weeks and I do not want any loans, I would have trouble finding a job and a bank.

But the picture above directly bears on pollution and emissions. We are most destructive when we are most productive.

Well well.

b.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:29   #138
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Like you, I believe that change starts at the bottom with an individual effort. But I see that I've been properly chastised on this thread for believing this folly... for those that are in the BIG GOVERNMENT camp have spoken... change can only happen after my mind has been changed, and I believe what they believe.
Not to pick on you Ken, but this is a false dichotomy. It's not an either/or discussion. We need personal responsibility (as I have stated many times), but we also need collective action which can best be done through, as you put it, "big government."

Take personal responsibility. At the first level, change your lights bulbs, recycle, compost, avoid crap with a lot of packaging, don't throw batteries into the landfill ... simple stuff (which really has little impact).

At the second level, try doing something like supporting local business, especially ones engaged in sustainable activities. Shop local even when it costs more, and avoid giving your money to Amazon, Walmart or Home Depot (examples only, the list is long). When stuff breaks, fix it, even if that costs more. Move closer to work, telecommute if you can, or just work fewer hours. Move your money out of the hands of international corporations (big banks) and into local credit unions. Shift your investments to sustainable companies, and don't drive short-term profit taking over long-term sustainability.

At the third step, just use less. Less energy, less water, less consumer crap. Buy a small car, or better still, get rid of it all together. Move into a small house, or a small boat (since this is CF). Sail, and when there's no wind, stay put. Avoid using the motor. Don't fly for fun, and when you do travel distances, use a train or bus. Vacation locally. And if you must procreate, keep it to two.

All these things (and tons more) can be done individually. But all of this will add up to small changes. For example, the real reason North American's water usage is so much higher than most others is due of our industrial uses, not our individual consumption. The most efficient way to improve this is through legislation and regulation, not individual action. Same goes for all sorts of pollution controls, resource extraction standards, transportation and transmission systems, and energy policies (just to name a few). We also need collective action around social goods such as basic R&D, education, pensions, healthcare, etc. These are all most efficiently done through broad collective action. And while these social investments may seem a tad off-topic, I would argue they are the basis for sound environmental decision making. A population that is stressed through poor education, poverty or bad healthcare is not one able to make rational decisions about their local, regional and global environments.

If we actually want to improve our ecosystem we need both individual and collective action.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:44   #139
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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The way societies are controlled today, over-consumption is promoted by both manufacturers and policy makers. In result, one that lives with less can be effectively seen as a no-citizen.

I know this first hand: when I was willing to work 60 hours weeks and take loans from banks, both employers and banks loved me. Now that I can do with 20 hours work weeks and I do not want any loans, I would have trouble finding a job and a bank.

But the picture above directly bears on pollution and emissions. We are most destructive when we are most productive.
Very true. In some ways the 2008 crash was great for the global environment. Reduced economic activity had a measurable positive impact on a lot of global environmental markers.

And you're absolutely right. It's not just evil corporations (tongue in cheek there folks) who drive unsustainable consumption. It's part of our culture. Isn't it perverse that someone who choses less (less work, less stuff, less consumption) is punished? But that's how screwed up our consumer culture has become.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:08   #140
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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We are most destructive when we are most productive.

b.
Poppycock. What rot. This comment sums up the hypocritical nature of this thread. Do you limit your intake to that which is got from your own garden, planted of your own seed, brought to fruition by your own hand? No, you rely on others to make it available to you. Those 'others' are mostly others which bring to you a low priced good. And what do you do with your waste? Every living organism produces waste, what is your effluent downstream?

Not even talking of meat, there are many middle men who all take a cut before it reaches your table. It's fine to talk of an agrarian commune which is wholly independent of 'the man' but until you speak of cost of production you're just blowing smoke.

This ain't waterworld. Get real.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:24   #141
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Very true. In some ways the 2008 crash was great for the global environment. Reduced economic activity had a measurable positive impact on a lot of global environmental markers.

And you're absolutely right. It's not just evil corporations (tongue in cheek there folks) who drive unsustainable consumption. It's part of our culture. Isn't it perverse that someone who choses less (less work, less stuff, less consumption) is punished? But that's how screwed up our consumer culture has become.
You speak not of which you know. Firstly, you mean a financial crash which in your mind equates to economic ruin. Would you deny that there are many select persons who gained riches in the so-called crash? Surely it has been a crash but can you not postulate that many well placed persons gained by it? So much for the ruination which you posit.

Secondly, you speak of "evil corporations" although tongue in cheek, or so you'd have us believe, yet you go on to mention how it's (sic) "part of our culture"? Who's culture, yours? I say, if the culture is screwed up it's by the pseudo logic which you present. Man has strived for eons to come to where we are now. Yet you decry where we are. Tell you what, friend, go back to hunt and gathering except the hunt is too violent for the likes of you.

So you, if you believe in Darwinian evolution, will go the way of the Dodo. Get out of the way to let an advanced culture make the future.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:32   #142
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

Like I said, this thread is a race to the bottom. Go on, make your mark in the new dawn, Struggle with a single row crop. Seek to bring catch from the waters to your table. Let's all wear kelp, if we should have to wear protection from the elements...little g god forbid we should wear animal skins.

The pretensions are apocryphal in hypocrisy.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:56   #143
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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. Isn't it perverse that someone who choses less (less work, less stuff, less consumption) is punished? But that's how screwed up our consumer culture has become.
Good God, I'm trying....

What you speak of is sustainability. In a former life I was a home builder. I turned my back on the McMansions built for two Yuppies. 10,000+ s.f. residences. Still I had people literally following after me on the streets to bid on their new home, not open bid, just when can I start. A good name is worth more than gold.

Anyway, I have built several homes which were 'sustainable'. They were built of materials such as rice chaff or alfalfa bales thence stuccoed using local clay material. Materials from LEED certified sustainable forests. Even the windows were 'harvested' from older homes. But it is requisite there be older homes. If you want to get down to it I guess we coulda' just hung burlap to cover the opening. Still, what of the electrical wiring? No way would I use used.

See, there is always a measurable amount of production. There is always a measurable amount of waste. Until you guys take this so-called discussion off paper and apply it in the real world it ain't worth the paper you use to wipe.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:02   #144
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

Maybe I missed it by why no spear fishing in Bash's list? I think it as item #10 in the original list.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:22   #145
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Poppycock. What rot. This comment sums up the hypocritical nature of this thread. Do you limit your intake to that which is got from your own garden, planted of your own seed, brought to fruition by your own hand? No, you rely on others to make it available to you. Those 'others' are mostly others which bring to you a low priced good. And what do you do with your waste? Every living organism produces waste, what is your effluent downstream?

Not even talking of meat, there are many middle men who all take a cut before it reaches your table. It's fine to talk of an agrarian commune which is wholly independent of 'the man' but until you speak of cost of production you're just blowing smoke.

This ain't waterworld. Get real.
I guess I should add that only the capacity of man holds the ability to think our effluent is not good for the environment. After all, the palm does not care where it drops its fronds. Nor does the beetle care where it makes its nest. It is only man which has the capacity (as far as we know) to say what is and what isn't 'healthy for the environment'. Every other creature, fauna or flora, seeks to promote it's species yet it is man who uses this so-called intelligence to prohibit growth in the species. This is anthropomorphic.

Not even talking of meat, there are many middle men who all take a cut before it reaches your table. It's fine to talk of an agrarian commune which is wholly independent of 'the man' but until you speak of cost of production you're just blowing smoke.

This ain't waterworld. Get real.[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:53   #146
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pirate Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

According to the Urban Dictionary:

"the sky is falling:
A really fun game where you tell your friend the sky is falling and then hit them on the head with a closed fist"



Sounds about right to me.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:19   #147
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You speak not of which you know. Firstly, you mean a financial crash which in your mind equates to economic ruin. Would you deny that there are many select persons who gained riches in the so-called crash? Surely it has been a crash but can you not postulate that many well placed persons gained by it? So much for the ruination which you posit.

Secondly, you speak of "evil corporations" although tongue in cheek, or so you'd have us believe, yet you go on to mention how it's (sic) "part of our culture"? Who's culture, yours? I say, if the culture is screwed up it's by the pseudo logic which you present. Man has strived for eons to come to where we are now. Yet you decry where we are. Tell you what, friend, go back to hunt and gathering except the hunt is too violent for the likes of you.

So you, if you believe in Darwinian evolution, will go the way of the Dodo. Get out of the way to let an advanced culture make the future.
I'm iPad limited right now, but can I suggest a little less frothing, and a bit more research my friend. It's well established that the reduction in global economic activity that followed the financial crisis in 2008 led to a short-lived reduction in some environmental markers.

Nature Climate Change journal
Rapid growth in CO2 emissions after the 2008–2009 global financial crisis
"Global carbon dioxide emissions from fossil-fuel combustion and cement production grew 5.9% in 2010, surpassed 9 Pg of carbon (Pg C) for the first time, and more than offset the 1.4% decrease in 2009. The impact of the 2008–2009 global financial crisis (GFC) on emissions has been short-lived."

Nature Geoscience journal
Update on CO2 emissions
"Emissions of CO2 are the main contributor to anthropogenic climate change. Here we present updated information on their present and near-future estimates. We calculate that global CO2 emissions from fossil fuel burning decreased by 1.3% in 2009 owing to the global financial and economic crisis that started in 2007"

Finally, I'm happy to engage in a rational discussion with civil people. It does not require that we run each down or attack each another personally.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:07   #148
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Like you, I believe that change starts at the bottom with an individual effort. But I see that I've been properly chastised on this thread for believing this folly... for those that are in the BIG GOVERNMENT camp have spoken... change can only happen after my mind has been changed, and I believe what they believe.
If you don't want to be publicly criticized, stop posting nonsense. Particularly made-up nonsense.

Lead, follow, or get outta the way.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:25   #149
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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Yes, absolutely correct. It is lower child mortality rates that are driving up populations. But as I and others have pointed out many times, this fixation with over population -- which is a very real issue -- is at best only 1/2 the global problem. The other half is intensity of resource use here in the "developed" countries (And 1/2 is being generous. In fact our contribution is far more than 1/2).

The fundamental problem is unsustainable use of finite resources and systems. Large populations drive heavy usage, but high per-capita usage does the same (or more). We keep seeing this reference to global population, and pointing to it -- to them -- as the problem. In fact, the rates of population expansion have been declining in the developing world for some time. Global populations are predicted to peak at around 9 billion, and then decline by the end of the decade. So in some substantive ways, the population problem is being addressed.

What isn't being address in any serious way is OUR use of resources. OUR per-capita use of the globe's resources keep going up. And worse still, those following in our developmental footsteps are pursuing the same resource-intense path.

Lake-Effect is correct, we do need to carve a different path. But it's not our moral duty. It's simply enlightened self-interest.
I subscribe to Paul Ehrlich's IPAT formula, that (Environmental) Impact = Population x Affluence x Technology. In once sense we're not really disagreeing, but I maintain that world population is presently not sustainable. It's the area that everyone wants not to talk about, especially people belonging to certain churches who like to argue, despite widespread world famine, that we can feed seven billion people. Well, to me that's not the entire issue, because of the massive amount of habitat loss suffered by other species so that our own species can house and feed itself.

But, ignoring our moral duty, it's clearly ALSO enlightened self-interest to carve a different path. Of course, the carving of paths is such a human response. Perhaps if we could just tread a bit more softly?
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:37   #150
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Re: How to be an Environmental Steward?

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I subscribe to Paul Ehrlich's IPAT formula, that (Environmental) Impact = Population x Affluence x Technology. In once sense we're not really disagreeing, but I maintain that world population is presently not sustainable. It's the area that everyone wants not to talk about, especially people belonging to certain churches who like to argue, despite widespread world famine, that we can feed seven billion people. Well, to me that's not the entire issue, because of the massive amount of habitat loss suffered by other species so that our own species can house and feed itself.

But, ignoring our moral duty, it's clearly ALSO enlightened self-interest to carve a different path. Of course, the carving of paths is such a human response. Perhaps if we could just tread a bit more softly?
The AGW issue is but one of many reasons for pushing towards technical solutions to energy overconsumption, pollution etc etc. Population is of course an issue, but mass culls are down the list a bit. Let's try the technical stuff first.

We still waste approx half of our food, so food supply isn't yet a problem
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