Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 18-05-2011, 18:26   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Rockhampton, Australia
Boat: No boat, looking again.
Posts: 346
Re: Virtual Pirating or Pirate Hunting, Anyone? Thanks to the US Military

Be interesting to see if anything useable comes out of the project.

Fastcompany, on whose website the MMOWGLI article appears, has had some great articles over the years. I haven't checked out their offerings for a while but used to avidly read their articles, I often found them thought provoking.
__________________

__________________
troppo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2011, 18:36   #47
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Im amazed

lets try a reasonable debate

Quote:
What moral autority do we have to abandon these people to their fate?
I think the presense of all the navies is a testamount to the fact that we are not "abandoning" people. But the fact remains, If you engage the pirates that have hostages , you run a huge risk that these people will be killed

Quote:
I would not want to be a hostage in this situation, this will only end badly.


Actually rarely has it ended badly, mostly the ransomes have been paid and crews released


"EU Navfor spokesman Wing Commander Paddy O’Kennedy says,
“Our priority is the safety of the hostages. The pirates are using the hostages as human shields and if we get too close to the pirates they threaten to kill the hostages . . . I am sure they will carry out the threats if we got too close.”
"


As the american incident shows this is all too true.


Hence this isnt about detection, this is about how you deal with hostage negogiation. its not about ordinance, predator this that or the other.


The fact is every day the navies get better and interdiction is occuring


just this month


"Iran's Navy warships have foiled a pirate attack on an Iranian cargo ship in the Indian Ocean off the southeast coast of Somalia in the Horn of Africa."


Lastly all these Navies operate under the laws of their own countries, which tends to limit what they can do. DO you really expect them to blow skiffs out of teh water on a arbitary basis.


This is an imperfect process. Its working but not all the time, as the Navies improve their intelligence and operational processess , it will improve but



"As for the futility of the naval effort to thwart pirate attacks, Lieutenant Jeremy Oliver of the Combined Maritime Forces, a multi-nation anti-piracy group observes, “[t]he area to cover is simply huge, and navies cannot be everywhere at once.”


and the thruth is that



"In an address to a United Nations anti-piracy council, United Arab Emirates representative, Ahmed al Jarman, said naval responses are not deterring pirate attacks off Somalia’s coast. Jarman argues that it will take an increased effort to bring pirates to justice in court and a rebuilding of Somalia’s collapsed government to put an end to what is in fact a pirate plague in the region."


of course we "yachtees" dont make it easy
"The Danish government said it was doing “everything in our power” to help the hostages. But maritime experts said the Johansens had foolishly placed themselves in grave danger off Somalia’s lawless coast despite warnings from naval forces struggling to police the area against pirates."


and teh Wing Commander again


"

Wing Commander Paddy O’Kennedy, spokesman for the European Union’s anti-piracy force EU Navfor, said the organization sent an open letter to European governments, yachting organizations and magazines warning of the perils of sailing through the area.
O’Kennedy said, “We did everything we possibly could to advise the yachting fraternity of the danger. [The Johansens] were aware of the risks they were about to take . . . When you’re on a yacht, it can take seconds from when they are seen to when they’re on board.” O’Kennedy said.
The Johansens really made it easy for the pirates. “They sailed right into the pirates’ arms,” said Per Gullestrup. His company owns a cargo ship that was held by Somali pirates for more than two months in 2009."


Simply put this is not about technology and Rambo style actions , its about people.

Quote:
What moral authority gives you that right. "
Please don't go there, the mods probably will close the thread if morals and politics are discussed.

We're discussing "what can be done" not whether or why it might or should be done. Just what can be done, when or if anyone decides to do it
Exactly that whats Im discussing , what actually can be done not what sci-fi nonsense thinks can be done. Remember US navies can only intervene in US ship attacks. A US naval ship cant protect say a Chineese ship unless specific permisison is sought and given, this is why most martime nations have a presense. It also explains that that whole thing isnt really a US Naval gig at all, as few US ships use teh route. ( and why teh US has very few naval assets there) Its really a EU/Russia/China/Far east issue.

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2011, 19:16   #48
Registered User
 
Jon Hacking's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Currently cruising Southern Indonesia, heading for peninsular Malaysia
Boat: Wauquiez 45' (now 48') catamaran
Posts: 523
Send a message via Skype™ to Jon Hacking
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Right. Which is why I think containment (quarantining the Somali coast to keep the guns from getting offshore & the pirated ships from getting back to Somalia) is the only workable solution I've heard so far. They may try the human shield trick to get through the blockade but there are things that can be done about that.
__________________
-- Jon Hacking s/v Ocelot
Jon Hacking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2011, 19:20   #49
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

a blockage is regarded as an act of War. I dont see that happening anyday soon. Lets look at what can be done within the current rules of engagement as they arnt going to be changed anytime soon.

If we simply enage in idle "what if speculation". then my solution is the SPBDD weapon ( Somali pirate brain detecting device) This seeks out the thought patterns of a pirate and then fries it ). Available "real soon now" in software engineering parlance.

Lets just look at pratical stuff.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2011, 19:53   #50
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,208
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Lets just look at pratical stuff.
Dave
"Set a Thief to catch a Thief"
Recruit a rival group and equip them to 'Search and Destroy'....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2011, 00:19   #51
Registered User
 
Jon Hacking's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Currently cruising Southern Indonesia, heading for peninsular Malaysia
Boat: Wauquiez 45' (now 48') catamaran
Posts: 523
Send a message via Skype™ to Jon Hacking
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
a blockage is regarded as an act of War. I don't see that happening anyday soon. Lets look at what can be done within the current rules of engagement as they arnt going to be changed anytime soon.

If we simply enage in idle "what if speculation"...Dave
Dave, a lot of folks have mentioned this, which is why I usually call it "quarantine" or some other less offensive euphemism. But we did a LOT more in Vietnam without calling it war. Are we still at war with Iraq? Afghanistan?

Declaring war on the govt of Somalia seems a bit silly. And we shouldn't even have to "declare" war on pirates (although I think some of the anti-piracy laws should be updated).

I suspect that what passes for the Somali govt doesn't like the pirates either, so they're not likely to complain about us putting pirates out of business. Heck, if we'd ask them, they'd probably make a formal request!

And any quarantine would happen ~50nm out, well beyond their 12nm territorial limits. Define safe transit lanes where legitimate shipping & fishing traffic could enter & leave (after being searched). Ships trying to go through elsewhere would get buzzed by choppers with VHF & loud-hailers telling them where to go (or be sunk) in appropriate languages.

There's not much legitimate shipping off that coast except some fishing & aid shipments. The Somali coastline is 1,600nm long, shorter if we don't have to patrol Somaliland (which I don't think we do). A ship every 50nm would have good radar overlap, & would only take ~30 ships.

This is not a long-term solution - this is just to clear the Indian Ocean of piracy with minimal political impact. But please don't call it "idle 'what if' speculation". I haven't heard a more workable way to rid the entire Indian Ocean of Somali piracy. Have you?

I'd love to hear more potential solutions. Bring 'em on! We've got LOTS of creative talent out there. But yes, let's try to keep them workable ideas...
__________________
-- Jon Hacking s/v Ocelot
Jon Hacking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2011, 01:03   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bundaberg, Australia
Boat: 57ft Steel Expedition Vessel
Posts: 173
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

I think a blockade would be an act of war if it was without the consent of the current somali government, however if it was with the concent and cooperation of the current somali government its would be fairly straight forward and without to much political fall out
__________________
Dame.n.Jess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2011, 03:29   #53
Registered User
 
Jon Hacking's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Currently cruising Southern Indonesia, heading for peninsular Malaysia
Boat: Wauquiez 45' (now 48') catamaran
Posts: 523
Send a message via Skype™ to Jon Hacking
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Technically, you're probably right. But we've certainly done lots worse without declaring war. If the politicians want to quarantine Somalia, they have lots of precedent for doing so without declaring war. So I don't see that as much of a reason not to pursue it. And I agree that getting someone in the Somali govt to request it would make many things easier. But I don't know the current political climate there.
__________________
-- Jon Hacking s/v Ocelot
Jon Hacking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2011, 04:03   #54
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
"Set a Thief to catch a Thief"
Recruit a rival group and equip them to 'Search and Destroy'....
+1. except I would call it legal enforcement

to do that I would suggest the answer involves The Marines..........the Somali Marines and the Somali CG (one CG each for the 3 regions). and the Somali Navy.

Of course those forces have to be created first But the big advantage of maritime forces is that they do not have to be based in Somali. Training camp(s) in Afghanistan 3 or 4 ships (minesweeper sized) based in the Seychelles. Initially under command of the US / EU - but then only as observors.

The problem will be paying for it all - I would suggest Somalia issues long dated IOU's, backed by the US / EU / China. Sooner or later (probably very much later ) Somali will be in a position to repay, no point giving cash away.
__________________
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 14:39   #55
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
In reply to requests for practical suggestions and given this is a US centric forum. I suggest :

US deploys naval assets in proportion to it's size. It currently has in effect two vessels there at the moment as part of 151 it should have many more

US and other navies should integrate their command structures in the area. This allows for cross country protection.

US ( and others with the capability such as France, UK and Russia) need to task high altitude AWaCs style cover so as to provide faster interdiction. Very few military recon assets are currently tasked.

US and others should agree a formal legal sanction process that can be applied. Maybe using ICC ( which is a problem for the US). This would allow legal prosecutions to happen quickly and consistently.

These are practical processes that could be done.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 14:48   #56
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,413
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
In reply to requests for practical suggestions and given this is a US centric forum. I suggest :

US deploys naval assets in proportion to it's size. It currently has in effect two vessels there at the moment as part of 151 it should have many more
...
Considering the few U.S.-registered ships in the Somali pirate zone, the U.S. Navy is providing a disproportionately large share of naval assets.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 15:00   #57
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
If that's the attitude that why even rant on CF about it.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 15:15   #58
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
"Set a Thief to catch a Thief"
Recruit a rival group and equip them to 'Search and Destroy'....
Seems that's SOP for most imperialist nations. For efficacy and possible downside look no farther then Afghanistan and the USA's funding of the Mujahideen and their successors the Al Queda.

What we really need is moderators in the Gulf of Aden with with some really good software tools
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 15:19   #59
Moderator... short for Cat Wrangler
 
sarafina's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Cal 28 Flush Deck
Posts: 5,559
Images: 56
Re: Help US Navy Hunt Pirates

BWaaaHaaaHHHHAAAhhaaaaaa........
__________________
Sara

ain't what ya do, it's the way that ya do it...
sarafina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-05-2011, 15:37   #60
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway

What we really need is moderators in the Gulf of Aden with with some really good software tools
God yes that's it. The pirates would start a gun or anchor thread and the mods would " shut them down" problem sorted

Hummingway You're a genius

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
navy

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US Navy and Pirates KestrelBuck Indian Ocean & Red Sea 6 15-04-2011 23:27
Pirates vs Impotent Navy BambooSailor Health, Safety & Related Gear 0 29-03-2010 08:19
more choices boat hunt meyermm Monohull Sailboats 6 24-12-2008 21:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:11.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.