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Old 21-01-2015, 08:39   #226
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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Originally Posted by captain58sailin View Post
One of the other frighteners is the computer virus creators that try to disable power plants and other infrastructures.


Anyone in engineering will tell you that a this virus nonsense is just that. Even the best efforts of state sponsored cyber terrorism, has succeeded in very little. its all reminds me of the Y2K nonsense ( and as a engineer, programmer, I made a shed load off people unwarranted fears)

Quote:
One of the nice things about being offshore and not connected, is that you don't hear about all the negative stuff the different news sources report on, and amazingly one's out look on life gets more positive.
You don't here all the positives things either , in fact you don't hear anything at all.

Quote:
Ebola's big downfall is it manifests too quickly, the last out break has been the most successful, perhaps it will mutate and the next time the spread will be more invasive.
"Ebolas downfall", kinda suggests your disappointed, its just a virus

You guys "always want a next time ". The fact is the "next time" will be something you haven't thought of, not something you have thought off. Most of the Ebola issues were a function of poor societal practices, and lack of decent public medicine. Western Health agencies, just brushed it away like a flea.


Quote:
With regards to the OP, by virtue of that some of us gear up and plan for longer stays offshore, we are more or less prepared for the "The end of the world as we know it". I don't think it is a bad idea to be prepared for what ever eventuality comes along, that is just good seamanship. I am sure Noah had to listen to a lot of derision and naysayers whilst he was building the ark.
Therein encapsulates the fallacy, first you quote a biblical reference, one that has no real foundation in fact, in that we know the earth didn't get submerged.

Secondly you can't be prepared "for what ever eventuality" that comes along, simply because you cannot foretell the future. Therefore stuff will happen you didn't foresee and therefore you can't be prepared for. This actually what typically happens. ( see buggy whip manufacturing )

No doubt the world will end, but not in the for-seeable future, thats long enough for me , or my kids, after that its SEP. Noah didn't listen to any naysayers, cause he didn't exist. ( seriously a boat that took 2 of every animal, seriously) The earth is billions of years old, I suspect it will be around a while.

If you are equating " preping " with religious faith , then that is fine, but lets not therefor debate this on any scientific basis of reality. One might as well debate satanism or voodoo.


Why would anyone want to stay " offshore" as a way of life, short of "water world" which is fiction. I mean food sources, technology to fix things, the ability to get potable water, hydrocarbons, etc all require modern infrastructure and most importantly " land"

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Old 21-01-2015, 08:41   #227
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

Or zombies
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Old 21-01-2015, 08:43   #228
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

I really didn't want to get into this with you Dave, but I find your view of history very short sighted. Preparation for disaster never did anyone any good- really? Prepping is the result of hollywood movies? You really believe that? Let's start at the beginning:

Prepping, in its basic form is insurance. Do you have insurance? Well Ok, lets say there is no company that can give complete insurance to everyone, that means one must become self insured. If you never save money, have no insurance and wake up each day on a clean slate (no belongings, no shelter etc...) then you can tell us you really don't prepare for the future. I think the character Jack Reacher does that in the spy books that some read. Interesting concept but impractical for the real world.

So everyone prepares, question is how much do you want to prepare for tomorrow. I like a week's worth of fresh food in my home, and next week I repeat. My home, with little maintenance, should last indefinitely. But I live close to a fault line- my home may be destroyed tomorrow, a year from now or 100 years from now. If so I have prepared my boat to live in as back up. What is so crazy about that? The same goes for food, water all things that through misfortune may be taken from our society that we need to sustain life.

You say there is no historical precedent for this, that your family (and Europe) survived world war 2 by simply banding together and toughing it out. I would point you to as far back as the famine in Egypt and their wheat storage plan. If you don't believe the Bible (which is fine) one of the big improvements in the Bronze age was the ability to store food, thus allowing man to survive the winter.

Speaking in a more modern sense, you may ask your parents who provided the food and materials to rebuild Europe after WW2. The Marshall plan used food and materials stockpiled in the US, much of it grown and stored where I am from, the rocky mountain west. We still have large silos of food here.

You say that prepping came from Hollywood. I thought I would clear this last detail. Brigham Young showed up at Winter's Quarters in 1846 with a two year supply of food for this family. My ancestors almost staved to death may times while colonizing the west, and the ethos of preparation goes deep into our psyche. We know what it is like to go hungry. My mom, growing up on a dry farm in newly homesteaded Idaho, was a toddler without food for many days. (depression era) So prepping for us was due to necessity. We were asked, BTW, to store canned fruit before WW2, and when the rationing came my dad said they had enough fruit to last the war.

Most recently, my brother lost his job for 6 months. He depended on his storage to feed his family. Insurance can have many forms my friend.

We are not preparing against Zombies. We are preparing against hunger, cold and disease. Things we know about, and things you would do well to remember. Despite our modern society, they are not far away.

I do not want to argue on this subject, however. I just wanted you to see our logic.
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Old 21-01-2015, 08:44   #229
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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Or zombies
Im happy we have this under control. we can clone loads of chuck Norris,

" are you as tough as Chuck "

Top 50 Chuck Norris Facts & Jokes | Chuck Norris Facts
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:00   #230
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

Me? No, I am a big wimp, that is why I have enough food aboard my vessel for extended periods of time, not because of fear, because where I live anything can happen weather or otherwise. It is not unusual to be weathered into a remote cove somewhere for 3 weeks or longer. When a heavy snow fall comes on land, I have been isolated for 2 weeks or longer, came through it no worse for the wear. I had the experience of riding out hurricane "Wilma" on shore, in West Palm Beach, FL, and that was far more scary to me and we were only 3 days without power. During that time, as we listened to our radio of reports of looting, and people crying because they had no water, ice, food, gas etc... Which was interesting, since we had well over a week heads up that it was coming. Me, I had a full gas tank, in my car, cases of drinking water, a single burner propane stove, cooler, flashlights with extra batteries, and a battery powered radio. Right before the hurricane hit we filled up everything that would hold water, including the bath tub. So other than lack of A/C we were comfortable and at one point considered driving out of the affected zone, which we could have done, it was well within the range of our car with a full tank. The scariest part of the whole experience, was being stacked on top of a bunch of people that had no clue about how to take care of themselves in advance, that were depending on the "Nanny state" to fullfill all their needs, right away.
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:06   #231
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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Originally Posted by s/v Beth View Post
I really didn't want to get into this with you Dave,
OK, but you're off to a bad start with the length of this one

Quote:
but I find your view of history very short sighted. Preparation for disaster never did anyone any good- really? Prepping is the result of hollywood movies? You really believe that? Let's start at the beginning:
Prepping, in its basic form is insurance. Do you have insurance? Well Ok, lets say there is no company that can give complete insurance to everyone, that means one must become self insured.
Insurance, is a specific product designed to compensate you in a specific way as a result of very specific things that might happen.

Most peoples activity is not insured precisely because insurance companies cannot predict what will happen to them.

Self insurance is a " term" a meaningless term. You cannot actually self insure.



Quote:
If you never save money, have no insurance and wake up each day on a clean slate (no belongings, no shelter etc...) then you can tell us you really don't prepare for the future. I think the character Jack Reacher does that in the spy books that some read. Interesting concept but impractical for the real world.
Indeed


Quote:
So everyone prepares, question is how much do you want to prepare for tomorrow. I like a week's worth of fresh food in my home, and next week I repeat.
You nor I regard that as " prepping", most people store food because they do not have immediate access to food stores. If you examine young people living in large busy urban centres ( I know I have grown up kids) they have nothing like a weeks groceries.

Even I prefer to buy day to day, fresh produce, specials, etc. My wife an I buy very little on a weeks basis ( why would we)

Because of where we live, as we approach winter, we lay in a few stores, but again in recent years, with snow ploughing and better vehicles, we are almost never denied access to a food store.


Quote:
My home, with little maintenance, should last indefinitely. But I live close to a fault line- my home may be destroyed tomorrow, a year from now or 100 years from now.
If so I have prepared my boat to live in as back up. What is so crazy about that? The same goes for food, water all things that through misfortune may be taken from our society that we need to sustain life.
perhaps a home not on a fault line might be a better choice ?


Quote:
You say there is no historical precedent for this, that your family (and Europe) survived world war 2 by simply banding together and toughing it out. I would point you to as far back as the famine in Egypt and their wheat storage plan. If you don't believe the Bible (which is fine) one of the big improvements in the Bronze age was the ability to store food, thus allowing man to survive the winter.
What I was saying is that the " preppers" speculate on future events that " suit" their prep. They conveniently avoid the fact that the future is something you cannot really foresee.

The big advantages of Bronze age was Bronze. more efficient tools and weapons, food storage really didn't change till refrigeration.

Quote:
Speaking in a more modern sense, you may ask your parents who provided the food and materials to rebuild Europe after WW2. The Marshall plan used food and materials stockpiled in the US, much of it grown and stored where I am from, the rocky mountain west. We still have large silos of food here.
You miss the point. during the war, food was scare, people didn't turn into zombies and justify the "preppers" dream. An hungry man is not an angry man at all. communities innovated, pulled together and survived.

The bigger post war reconstruction is entirely an different topic. One could argue the effects of the US involvement, till the cows come home and the Marshall plan wasn't the only idea the US had either !!!!


Quote:
You say that prepping came from Hollywood. I thought I would clear this last detail. Brigham Young showed up at Winter's Quarters in 1846 with a two year supply of food for this family. My ancestors almost staved to death may times while colonizing the west, and the ethos of preparation goes deep into our psyche
.

Indeed, I recognised and acknowledge that it is in the US psyche. whether it is relevant today is what we are debating. some of my ancestors came from a land where close to 1 million people died from starvation , note " not nearly died", bizarrely in a country teaming with produce and fish in its seas. that Race memory continues, yet I don't see large numbers of Irish hoarding potatoes

Quote:
We know what it is like to go hungry. My mom, growing up on a dry farm in newly homesteaded Idaho, was a toddler without food for many days. So prepping for us was due to necessity. We were asked, BTW, to store canned fruit before WW2, and when the rationing came my dad said they had enough fruit to last the war.
Again you are missing the point, I have relatives from very poor rural isolated backgrounds. They could not store or hoard food, because they never had the resources to accumulate anything, canned food was a virtual luxury. This was in the 50s , never mind WW2. They lived hand to mouth lives, and decease was a terrible killer.

But again, these are not " preppers".

Quote:
We are not preparing against Zombies. We are preparing against
Quote:
hunger, cold and disease.
Things we know about, and things you would do well to remember. Despite our modern society, they are not far away.
I do not want to argue on this subject, however. I just wanted you to see our logic.
putting a few tins of fruit ( personally Id prefer flour actually) is not " prepping"

you presumably live in the US, one of the wealthiest and stable societies on the planet

so just where is the
"hunger, cold and disease. " coming from, where?


This is the point

speculate on the reasons why " hunger cold and disease" should sweep through a society like the US, with advanced social welfare polices and exceptional standards of healthcare.

This is the point, depute all the WW2 retoric, and they tinned fruit stories, yo are basing your concepts on a myth from the future. ( that was based in the past)

Dave
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:20   #232
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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Me? No, I am a big wimp, that is why I have enough food aboard my vessel for extended periods of time, not because of fear, because where I live anything can happen weather or otherwise. It is not unusual to be weathered into a remote cove somewhere for 3 weeks or longer. When a heavy snow fall comes on land, I have been isolated for 2 weeks or longer, came through it no worse for the wear. I had the experience of riding out hurricane "Wilma" on shore, in West Palm Beach, FL, and that was far more scary to me and we were only 3 days without power.
forgive me , Im lying in bed ill, and this thread piques my interest


firstly m the mere fact that you mention " disruptions" of a week or two, indicates perhaps how many people are so connected to modern realities. A week is nothing in reality

Outages of things for a week or two, do not represent the fall of society , nor do you having a few tinned peaches, correspond to " prepping"

Quote:
During that time, as we listened to our radio of reports of looting, and people crying because they had no water, ice, food, gas etc... Which was interesting, since we had well over a week heads up that it was coming. Me, I had a full gas tank, in my car, cases of drinking water, a single burner propane stove, cooler, flashlights with extra batteries, and a battery powered radio.
Well most reports of these things are overdone for dramatic news consumption, but again you weren't "prepping", you precisely knew what was coming and you prepared for it. but " prepping" would be if you also got prepared for a nuclear winter at the same time. Preparation for a known expected event, is entirely different from " prepping" for a future unknown event of possibly biblical effect.

Quote:
The scariest part of the whole experience, was being stacked on top of a bunch of people that had no clue about how to take care of themselves in advance, that were depending on the "Nanny state" to fullfill all their needs, right away.
There is no such thing as the " Nanny" state, that suggest that the state is some entitity that is disconnected from You. People pay taxes and expect services. Thats the " Nanny" state. in the 17th century people paid less tax and the state did virtually nothing for them. Today we have evolved in that respect,

Merely being a " prepare" simply because you don't like the effects of the Modern state, is all very well. Its a rather bizarre activity in that regard, since the state is going anywhere anytime soon. ( nor is there evidence that it will)

Again , to be trivial , having a few tins of peaches because you know on Sunday, based on the predictions of an expensive state funded weather service, that there is a likely hood of power outages is not my definition of "prepping", its merely acting prudently based on good known facts.

Prepping because you fear the fall of society or, the rampant advance of " hunger, cold and disease" in a modern society like the US, is utterly bizarre.
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:20   #233
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

Dave,
In post # 210 you said,

The trouble with survivalism and or prepping , is that it is based on a flawed assumption. The assumption being that some unmentioned disaster will remove functioning society and therefore only those prepared to exist by their own means will survive.

The fallacy of course is that no historical event like that has ever happened, even where considerable destruction of functioning societies occur, people group together, share resources and reestablish order. ( and yes often in am imperfect way )

So you insist that being that our national electrical grid can't possibly fail due to an EMP because it's never happened before?

I could use that same logic to insist that if I wear white socks every day and never change the color, I'm preventing nuclear war because as long as I've been wearing them, there hasn't been one. Ergo, white socks prevent nuclear war.

BTW Newt's #228 ought'a be nominated for The Post of the Day.
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:42   #234
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

We are getting caught up on what the definition of "preping" is.

I contend only that having a few weeks or possibly even months of supplies on a cruising boat, is not an illogical act, isn't that hard to do and in fact it appears in my refit of my boat, it's what I'm doing, although it's not to prepare for the end of the world, but to prepare for extended cruising, possibly long passages.

Through Marriage my family has some older survivors of the Holocaust, German Jews in fact.
They don't "prep" but they do have quite a bit of supplies laid in, I don't think it's done intentionally, they are just comfortable having a well stocked food supply.

When I was in Korea, they do the same, Having a large supply of rice etc on hand is extremely common, when I asked about it, I was told it was a matter of wealth and comfort.

Seems that Societies not far removed from Famine and Starvation draw comfort in having what we consider an excessive amount of food on hand. The don't call it anything, I don't believe it even a conscious act, I think it's like most people like having a good sized savings account in the bank is all.
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:48   #235
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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We are getting caught up on what the definition of "preping" is.

I contend only that having a few weeks or possibly even months of supplies on a cruising boat, is not an illogical act, isn't that hard to do and in fact it appears in my refit of my boat, it's what I'm doing, although it's not to prepare for the end of the world, but to prepare for extended cruising, possibly long passages.

Through Marriage my family has some older survivors of the Holocaust, German Jews in fact.
They don't "prep" but they do have quite a bit of supplies laid in, I don't think it's done intentionally, they are just comfortable having a well stocked food supply.

When I was in Korea, they do the same, Having a large supply of rice etc on hand is extremely common, when I asked about it, I was told it was a matter of wealth and comfort.

Seems that Societies not far removed from Famine and Starvation draw comfort in having what we consider an excessive amount of food on hand. The don't call it anything, I don't believe it even a conscious act, I think it's like most people like having a good sized savings account in the bank is all.
Common sense
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:49   #236
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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So you insist that being that our national electrical grid can't possibly fail due to an EMP because it's never happened before?

I could use that same logic to insist that if I wear white socks every day and never change the color, I'm preventing nuclear war because as long as I've been wearing them, there hasn't been one. Ergo, white socks prevent nuclear war.
leaving aside your obvious " reductio ad absurdum" piece. The speculation about EMP is just that " speculation". If its nuclear EMP , I d be much more worried about the sods on the receiving end of the US retaliatory strike, then a few prep errs in the woods. When the world has turned to glass, the last thing Ill be worried about is boats or why the electricity isn't working

You cannot foresee future events, nor can you foresee the "fall of civilisation" , typically when the " fall" occurs, its because civilisations didn't see it. If they saw it it wouldn't be a "fall"

Again lets not mix this up with buying a weeks groceries
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:51   #237
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

The difference between prepping and going to the grocery store every day after work to buy stuff for dinner is only a matter of degree.

Ooh! Latin. My "reductio ad absurdum" was pointing out your insistence that because something has never happened, that it could NOT happen.

My favorite (mock) Latin phrase is,

Illegitimi non carborundum
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:57   #238
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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Sure. But there are less of them, and they are less violent. What is up is reporting about violence, not violence itself. We're getting increasingly peacefull.

The stories about the violence and looting during Katrina were mostly that: Stories, exaggerated by a media keen to be able to report something.
Later it was found out that most of the stories were false, had no base in reality. The truth is that communities pulling together, and people helping each other was the norm during Katrina. it was also the norm during the earthquake in Haiti.
It just doesn't make good headlines however.
Ferguson is a different case. That is not a natural disaster, but a group of people feeling that they have been treated unjustly. You cannot use that as a template of how people react when facing a natural disaster.

Most people are basically honest. Some people are dishonest, but generally speaking the world is becoming less violent.
A century ago something like the Ferguson riots would already have seen tens of deaths.

I've left my iPhone on the train three times already. Got it back each time. I've also once left it in a restaurant in Paris. Got it back then as well. A friend of mine left his wallet on top of a ticket vending machine. Got it back too. People normally to do the right thing.


Yes, we see it on TV everyday. That's the main difference between now and then: there isn't more violence, there is less. But there are more cameras pointed at the violence then ever before.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Leave your Iphone sitting on a bench in New York, it will be gone in a couple of minutes.

Take a walk in East Los Angeles or Compton, especially at night. The question is not if you'll die, but whether it's from stab wounds or gunshot wounds.

It's obvious your perspective is from living in Switzerland, my comments are based on what I see here in the US. If either of us were living in Japan at the moment, then we'd be discussing the fact that a phone or laptop has a 95% return rate in that country.

My comments were based on the examples I've seen here in the US, specifically here in CA. YMMV, especially in more enlightened or honest areas of the world.
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Old 21-01-2015, 09:59   #239
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

[QUOTE=a64pilot;1729983]
Quote:
We are getting caught up on what the definition of "preping" is.
I have very clearly been arguing against the view that prepping for a future known event of considerable effect is bizarre.

Quote:
I contend only that having a few weeks or possibly even months of supplies on a cruising boat, is not an illogical act, isn't that hard to do and in fact it appears in my refit of my boat, it's what I'm doing, although it's not to prepare for the end of the world, but to prepare for extended cruising, possibly long passages.
a week may , two weeks sure, Months , I see no purpose , shops are everywhere, At most for an ocean crossing your looking at 6-7 weeks food and thats an unusual event.

Quote:
Through Marriage my family has some older survivors of the Holocaust, German Jews in fact.
They don't "prep" but they do have quite a bit of supplies laid in, I don't think it's done intentionally, they are just comfortable having a well stocked food supply.
Indeed, it was seen as a form of wealth. Again these people had direct experience of shortages, so they hoarded against future shortages, not really realising that society and food production and distribution has changed. In the future, it may not have been food they needed. but say access to electricity , but like my grandmother they didn't consider that aspect.

People always prep for the wrong thing.

Quote:
When I was in Korea, they do the same, Having a large supply of rice etc on hand is extremely common, when I asked about it, I was told it was a matter of wealth and comfort.
This is somewhat different, its more a demonstration of wealth then anything else. of course in a revolution all that " rice"gets taken from them.

Quote:
Seems that Societies not far removed from Famine and Starvation draw comfort in having what we consider an excessive amount of food on hand. The don't call it anything, I don't believe it even a conscious act, I think it's like most people like having a good sized savings account in the bank is all.
Most people like savings cause it reprints wealth, if they couldn't use it to buy things they wont bother saving. History has shown that those that relied on savings and stored wealth in that form have not fared well in holding on to their savings ( Greek hit on savers , cyprus, etc germany pre ww2, recent bank shares ) in fact the existence of savings proves irresistible for governments to tax it.


The race memory of certain societies ( and it is certain) to store food, in some cases , because many poor could never afford to store food, is in part based on the fact that regular periods of low food availability occurred in their immediate past.

That is not prepping , based on a prediction of future turmoil thats based on no evidence. i.e. prepping because the US grid is going to be hit by EMP for example


I have an apple beside my bed, Im prepping ??

dave
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Old 21-01-2015, 10:01   #240
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Re: Has anyone considered their Multihull as last refuge in Global Pandemic?

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You're comparing apples to oranges. Leave your Iphone sitting on a bench in New York, it will be gone in a couple of minutes.

Take a walk in East Los Angeles or Compton, especially at night. The question is not if you'll die, but whether it's from stab wounds or gunshot wounds.

It's obvious your perspective is from living in Switzerland, my comments are based on what I see here in the US. If either of us were living in Japan at the moment, then we'd be discussing the fact that a phone or laptop has a 95% return rate in that country.

My comments were based on the examples I've seen here in the US, specifically here in CA. YMMV, especially in more enlightened or honest areas of the world.
Yes but you equally cannot extend that argument to say , that everyone in newyork will rob and loot and take everything when society breaks down to then justify " prepping"

There will always be petty thievery, but taken as a whole humanity is better then it is worse.
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