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Old 07-01-2009, 09:11   #151
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Owning a forum or an airline is the quickest way to make ones life miserable Bstreep.

Airline pilots who instruct fellow pilots are like moderators here they are needed but rarely appreciated, part of the job I guess.

The core of this thread is to correct whatever can be improved to make everybody's experience a pleasant one at CF.com as well as BRINGING BACK important individuals who have recently departed like Chuck.

I read this thread and I am just taking it as a learning experience.
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Old 07-01-2009, 09:54   #152
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We don't pay anything. WE are the site because if WE don't post anything there IS no site.

The founders sell advertising to pay for the server, the access and the software. They may not be getting rich,but it's not a labor or love, I suspect. Anyone who takes a mod role simply has an authority thing going on. Someone has to be a cop. They may bitch and complain about it but they do it because they LIKE to do it.

Why do they LIKE to mod? I wanna read it.
Ok, you got it.

I enjoy being a moderator because I believe in the goals of this website and the positive things that it does for fellow boaters and boaters to be. Its not a power trip for me. I have enough power in my own life being the captain of a research vessel. But I don't do that job for the power either. I do it because its an enjoyable job and of course for what little it pays.

For myself, being a moderator has nothing to do with power and everything to do with the enjoyment I get out of helping others wherever I can. Some people in this society actually do things to help others because they get a good feeling out of helping others.

Its actually pretty rare when I have to enforce the rules of the forum. When I do, its not a power trip at all. My greatest concern is enforcing the rules in a way that will minimize the possibility of ticking someone off and being as fair as possible. That's not a power trip for me at all....its actually more of a personal challenge to see I can do it in such a way that everyone involved goes away happy. Occasionally it is impossible to make everyone happy. At least I tried.

Although I cannot speak directly for the other moderators on this board, I can say in speaking with the other moderators behind the scenes, I think I can accurately say that all the other moderators feel pretty much the same way if not exactly the same way. They also enjoy giving back to others. That is the true reason we volunteer many many hours of our personal time...to help people.

On the other hand, if I thought I was not helping people with the time that I volunteer to this website, I would not bother being a moderator.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:12   #153
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I've been reading CF for a over a year now and it is startling when you loose some of the senior members. For my .02, I'll say that I'm a taker. I take away much more then I can give on this forum, so for me to stop reading and participating at the small level I do, really wouldn't matter much.
Loosing Wheels and Chuck, now these guys where givers. They spent tons of time helping other members and I would guess that they enjoyed that part - the giving of their knowledge. Replacing quality members like this is difficult and as everyone else - I hope they return some day.

Guldy, he came on strong. Didn't take much and spent a lot informing. Most of his posts in the end where filled with controversy. There where alterior motives from the start for him, creating professional quality video's of his boat trials detailing his expearences so fully. As I'm also interested in purchasing a catamaran, I followed along for awile. FWIW, he also joined the St. Francis google forum and promply tried to move it's membership over to his site also.

Sully, he was a different breed. I wouldn't cast him as a taker but many of his posts where filled with fluff. Hopefully he will have some introspect of his past and rejoin the forum reincarnated.

I like the mods. Gord must have a IQ level next to Einstein's. Hud seems to be a Jimmy Buffet soul, living in the islands, fishing the pylons. The rest of you guys are alright too

In the past threads like when Sully left, it has been suggested time and time again to move threads to different areas when they become controversal of nature. The topic wouldn't appear when you hit "New Posts". While this idea really doesn't matter to me as a "taker" I think it has been suggested enough that strong consideration should be given it.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:14   #154
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Seems Like alot of silly drama on these forums, some more than others.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:39   #155
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We don't pay anything. WE are the site because if WE don't post anything there IS no site.

The founders sell advertising to pay for the server, the access and the software. They may not be getting rich, but it's not a labor or love, I suspect. Anyone who takes a mod role simply has an authority thing going on. Someone has to be a cop. They may bitch and complain about it but they do it because they LIKE to do it.

Why do they LIKE to mod? I wanna read it.

Looks like the cheese done fell off the cracker here.

I dont care how much money the founders of this forum profit and I could care less as to why the mods like to mod. What I do care about is that they are present and maintaining standards that some here cant seem to do for themselves.

Thanks go to the posters on this thread who have presented complaints and have expressed themselves in a legitimate manner. My comments are not to diminish your concerns. I was unaware that Sullivan and Wheels left and would like to know why. I liked reading their posts as I did Chuck's.

I certainly favor a moderated board. Its not perfect, but I hope to help make it better by supporting those who try to maintain high standards. In my opinion they are a little too conservative and restrictive, but rules are rules and sometimes they work in our favor and sometimes they dont. The issue should be how we conduct ourselves when they dont. Man up and deal with it sailor boys.

If this place becomes intolerable, I will do what Chuck did and change the view.

Fair winds guys.
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:56   #156
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Originally Posted by David M View Post
They also enjoy giving back to others. That is the true reason we volunteer many many hours of our personal time...to help people.
I am now also leaving the forum.

You have shattered my dreams of what goes on behind the scenes on CF.com

I have been sitting here tap tapping away for a couple of years now, sure in my mind that in Moderator and Admin land it was all Cold Beer, Hot Woman (or "whatever floats yer boat" ) and 24/7 drunken debauchery......on a sun kissed island somewhere in the Caribbean.......and the only thing that has kept me going is the hope that one day "the call" will come for me too to join "the Gods". Oh B#gger



But on a more relevent (?!) note, this has been an interesting thread to see the varying attitudes (and perceptions) of folk to CF.com. My view is Andy is running a business and in that I have a couple of roles. I am both a supplier and a customer. But one thing I am definately not is management, let alone "the boss" (and nor a "Consultant" ).

The deal I have struck (and am presently happy with) is that in exchange for adding a bit of info now and again (and maybe* click an Advert or 2? ) I get to learn stuff.....I don't get paid for what I add, but nor does it cost me anything. Whilst it works for me I will stay around. When it stops I will b'#gger off

To me, CF.com is not a free Library, nor is it Andy's Lounge. It's more like Andy's Boating Bookshop - where everyone comes in for the purpose of acquiring knowledge and incidental to that may have a chat over a coffee with the staff and other customers. And being a boat bookshop most of the conversation will be about boats. It may be a nice and freindly experiance but that is incidental, it's not intended to be a Bar where folk go principally to socialise.....and where the subject will be expected to range far and wide , with a different behaviour tolerated. I like bars like that But I also like bookshops ......God forbid this place ends up like XXX.com where groups of members feel entitled to "own" the forum due to apathetic Moderation.

Is Andy doing the right thing for his business? I have no idea as I don't get to see the numbers But I hazard a guess yes, as the forum is still here . And IME part of running a business is realising that some Customers and Suppliers can simply be too much trouble overall for the benefit - no matter that they may also bring something worth having. (BTW not aimed at anyone specific).....and if the business is fundamentaly sound this minority can always be replaced. If not the business either adjusts or fails.

The internet - sometimes it is like real life



* I would guess the Newcomers to the site / to boats are more likely to click on the Adverts.....I've certainly stopped even noticing them and I suspect I am not alone.
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Old 07-01-2009, 12:56   #157
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Hey rigamorole I like your analysis of the cast of characters . BTW Sully was once referred to as a "Drama Queen" by a guy from Australia .

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigamarole View Post
I've been reading CF for a over a year now and it is startling when you loose some of the senior members. For my .02, I'll say that I'm a taker. I take away much more then I can give on this forum, so for me to stop reading and participating at the small level I do, really wouldn't matter much.
Loosing Wheels and Chuck, now these guys where givers. They spent tons of time helping other members and I would guess that they enjoyed that part - the giving of their knowledge. Replacing quality members like this is difficult and as everyone else - I hope they return some day.

Guldy, he came on strong. Didn't take much and spent a lot informing. Most of his posts in the end where filled with controversy. There where alterior motives from the start for him, creating professional quality video's of his boat trials detailing his expearences so fully. As I'm also interested in purchasing a catamaran, I followed along for awile. FWIW, he also joined the St. Francis google forum and promply tried to move it's membership over to his site also.

Sully, he was a different breed. I wouldn't cast him as a taker but many of his posts where filled with fluff. Hopefully he will have some introspect of his past and rejoin the forum reincarnated.

I like the mods. Gord must have a IQ level next to Einstein's. Hud seems to be a Jimmy Buffet soul, living in the islands, fishing the pylons. The rest of you guys are alright too

In the past threads like when Sully left, it has been suggested time and time again to move threads to different areas when they become controversal of nature. The topic wouldn't appear when you hit "New Posts". While this idea really doesn't matter to me as a "taker" I think it has been suggested enough that strong consideration should be given it.
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Old 07-01-2009, 13:12   #158
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Welcome to internet forums. I've been apart of a few and this same crap happens in all of the forums near as I can tell. Just human nature I guess. I've been a mod/admin on some, I've been the "difficult" and well liked post of others.

Same ****, different day.

In the end, take it or leave it is all one can do I think.

Yes, this forum has a very strong reputation on the net for being heavily moderated. Too much so, we each need to answer that for ourselves.

It really is a sad thing when valuable members leave and I think the staff owes itself to learn what they can. That said, as in sales 101 you can't make everyone happy might come into play.

Take it or leave it, same **** different day. Express ones opinions and hope for change but don't get ones hopes up.

Part I don't get is the mods/admins here allow talk of ad blocking which is an insto ban on other forums yet clamp down on other things such as saying someone might not be that good of a sailor.
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Old 07-01-2009, 13:30   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post

...But on a more relevent (?!) note, this has been an interesting thread to see the varying attitudes (and perceptions) of folk to CF.com. My view is Andy is running a business and in that I have a couple of roles. I am both a supplier and a customer. But one thing I am definately not is management, let alone "the boss" (and nor a "Consultant" ).

The deal I have struck (and am presently happy with) is that in exchange for adding a bit of info now and again (and maybe* click an Advert or 2? ) I get to learn stuff.....I don't get paid for what I add, but nor does it cost me anything. Whilst it works for me I will stay around. When it stops I will b'#gger off

To me, CF.com is not a free Library, nor is it Andy's Lounge. It's more like Andy's Boating Bookshop - where everyone comes in for the purpose of acquiring knowledge and incidental to that may have a chat over a coffee with the staff and other customers. And being a boat bookshop most of the conversation will be about boats. It may be a nice and freindly experiance but that is incidental, it's not intended to be a Bar where folk go principally to socialise.....and where the subject will be expected to range far and wide , with a different behaviour tolerated. I like bars like that But I also like bookshops ......God forbid this place ends up like XXX.com where groups of members feel entitled to "own" the forum due to apathetic Moderation.

Is Andy doing the right thing for his business? I have no idea as I don't get to see the numbers But I hazard a guess yes, as the forum is still here . And IME part of running a business is realising that some Customers and Suppliers can simply be too much trouble overall for the benefit - no matter that they may also bring something worth having. (BTW not aimed at anyone specific).....and if the business is fundamentaly sound this minority can always be replaced. If not the business either adjusts or fails...
That is pretty much as I see it too .

I had an xxx.com in mind too "where groups of members feel entitled to "own" the forum due to apathetic Moderation". I wonder if it is the same one ?
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Old 07-01-2009, 14:07   #160
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I don't see this as a library, bookshop etc I see it as an internet forum: totally fluid in readership. People come and go. Its the nature of the internet that was never expected that forums like these could operate. Its not the old and bold that make forums, its the new members constantly refilling the ranks.

The forums I feel work best are those that are moderated strongly. I think this one is a good one and excellently moderated. I had a thread closed on me today but am I jumping up and down like a spoilt child?

There is one simple thing for those disgruntled. Leave. And I would ask you please leave soon as I prefer the gentle waves of adult discussion.
Those that do leave may find it is harder to find a better forum that this.

I would think the Mods here might prefer a smaller but supportive membership than a larger one that they do not like.


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Old 07-01-2009, 14:22   #161
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Quote:
The forums I feel work best are those that are moderated strongly. I think this one is a good one and excellently moderated. I had a thread closed on me today but am I jumping up and down like a spoilt child?
I agree entirely. I think the mods do a great job here. I tend to get overly political and need to be trimmed back once in a while. I come here to try to help others and to learn but too often find myself in a political rant. Without the mods trimming me back things could get way off track. I have tried other forums but this one suits me best. Viva CF.com.
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Old 07-01-2009, 16:23   #162
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I suspect that most people leave because of "moderation" which is interpreted as censorship. This is a tough issue because we want to believe that as long as we are not yelling"fire!" in a crowded fire or slandering someone, as adults we should be free to "express" ourselves and react as we see fit.

We all choose which threads to read and which ones to comment on and which posts to respond to.

I frankly don't see what moderation is doing to make this a better forum especially since some mature and experienced sailors have been "dressed down" by the mods. And for the others it is done without transparency which is also disturbing.. kinda light coming in under cover of darkness and removing the offending person/ comment/grafitti whatever.

I believe anyone who takes the time to contribute is either looking for advice, or GIVING advice and I would say therefore that most participants are giving generously of their time and sharing their experience. I don't think moderation ADDS one iota to one "generosity" quotient, although it may suck up their time in "discussions" about what is politically correct.

Some sites and this may be one, forbid posting links to other sites. Completely childish and paranoid. I am referring to legitimate sites, not spamming porn or unrelated sites. I don't think anyone likes spamming and if that was the extent of moderation, to weed out spamming I am ok with that. But it's apparently not the extent, because the mods act as EDITORS and decide what passes the sniff test. Who are they protecting? What are the protecting?

I write this because I don't have a "view" of any cases other than knowing the result of some really good salts getting moderated to the point where they were not comfortable and my one experience with having thread pulled by the mods who in my opinion had absolutely no basis to pull it, or the reason they claimed was pure hooey.

Frankly, I was unaware of the intrusion of the mods until I observed some favorite posters weighing anchor and sailing right outta here and then my own little "run in" with the law.

I don't like everything about my town, my state and my country, but that doesn't mean I pick up and leave. It does mean I agitate for a better town, state and country and use whatever opportunities arise to make a point.

I don't need cops to tell me what to do and not do. And I don't need them to protect my property, because I don't have any. I go about my business, mind my business and try to be a good neighbor and citizen and sometimes that means telling the powers that be and their minions that that they are full of it.

In reality, there is not need for lots of moderators. If the people who put up the site can't manage to read the volume of conversations once a day and manage the "content" that appears in a site such as this... why did they start it in the first place?

If the purpose of the side is to exchange information about sailing and the discussions are about sailing why are sailors who contributed tens of thousands of words being alienated or over "moderated" as many are.

Houston, we got a problem.
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Old 07-01-2009, 16:38   #163
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Houston, we got a problem.
You might have a problem, but a like this forum and I like the mods and appreciate the job that they do. The members that leave have a thin skin and a problem.
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Old 07-01-2009, 16:41   #164
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Morgan Paul,

Since not to many mods are articulating what it is they do, perhaps you can do it for them. What are they doing?

Believe me it's not thin skinnedess that makes people voluntarily leave a forum. I think it would be disgust, disappointment, outrage.. that sort of stuff.
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Old 07-01-2009, 16:44   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
I am now also leaving the forum.

You have shattered my dreams of what goes on behind the scenes on CF.com

I have been sitting here tap tapping away for a couple of years now, sure in my mind that in Moderator and Admin land it was all Cold Beer, Hot Woman (or "whatever floats yer boat" ) and 24/7 drunken debauchery......on a sun kissed island somewhere in the Caribbean.......and the only thing that has kept me going is the hope that one day "the call" will come for me too to join "the Gods". Oh B#gger



But on a more relevent (?!) note, this has been an interesting thread to see the varying attitudes (and perceptions) of folk to CF.com. My view is Andy is running a business and in that I have a couple of roles. I am both a supplier and a customer. But one thing I am definately not is management, let alone "the boss" (and nor a "Consultant" ).

The deal I have struck (and am presently happy with) is that in exchange for adding a bit of info now and again (and maybe* click an Advert or 2? ) I get to learn stuff.....I don't get paid for what I add, but nor does it cost me anything. Whilst it works for me I will stay around. When it stops I will b'#gger off

To me, CF.com is not a free Library, nor is it Andy's Lounge. It's more like Andy's Boating Bookshop - where everyone comes in for the purpose of acquiring knowledge and incidental to that may have a chat over a coffee with the staff and other customers. And being a boat bookshop most of the conversation will be about boats. It may be a nice and freindly experiance but that is incidental, it's not intended to be a Bar where folk go principally to socialise.....and where the subject will be expected to range far and wide , with a different behaviour tolerated. I like bars like that But I also like bookshops ......God forbid this place ends up like XXX.com where groups of members feel entitled to "own" the forum due to apathetic Moderation.

Is Andy doing the right thing for his business? I have no idea as I don't get to see the numbers But I hazard a guess yes, as the forum is still here . And IME part of running a business is realising that some Customers and Suppliers can simply be too much trouble overall for the benefit - no matter that they may also bring something worth having. (BTW not aimed at anyone specific).....and if the business is fundamentaly sound this minority can always be replaced. If not the business either adjusts or fails.

The internet - sometimes it is like real life



* I would guess the Newcomers to the site / to boats are more likely to click on the Adverts.....I've certainly stopped even noticing them and I suspect I am not alone.
DOJ, you have been reading my mind again - please stop it. .

Can't agree more but have to add that in some ways CF is also a bit like a large ship with a captain, officers and very large crew. All are needed (but not always liked) to keep the ship functional and on-course. By and large I can respect the officers (mods) and follow their orders even without agreeing with them. Unlike a ship I can bail out whenever I want to and likewise get back on board if I wish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by defjef View Post
I suspect that most people leave because of "moderation" which is interpreted as censorship. This is a tough issue because we want to believe that as long as we are not yelling"fire!" in a crowded fire or slandering someone, as adults we should be free to "express" ourselves and react as we see fit.

We all choose which threads to read and which ones to comment on and which posts to respond to.

I frankly don't see what moderation is doing to make this a better forum especially since some mature and experienced sailors have been "dressed down" by the mods. And for the others it is done without transparency which is also disturbing.. kinda light coming in under cover of darkness and removing the offending person/ comment/grafitti whatever.

I believe anyone who takes the time to contribute is either looking for advice, or GIVING advice and I would say therefore that most participants are giving generously of their time and sharing their experience. I don't think moderation ADDS one iota to one "generosity" quotient, although it may suck up their time in "discussions" about what is politically correct.

Some sites and this may be one, forbid posting links to other sites. Completely childish and paranoid. I am referring to legitimate sites, not spamming porn or unrelated sites. I don't think anyone likes spamming and if that was the extent of moderation, to weed out spamming I am ok with that. But it's apparently not the extent, because the mods act as EDITORS and decide what passes the sniff test. Who are they protecting? What are the protecting?

I write this because I don't have a "view" of any cases other than knowing the result of some really good salts getting moderated to the point where they were not comfortable and my one experience with having thread pulled by the mods who in my opinion had absolutely no basis to pull it, or the reason they claimed was pure hooey.

Frankly, I was unaware of the intrusion of the mods until I observed some favorite posters weighing anchor and sailing right outta here and then my own little "run in" with the law.

I don't like everything about my town, my state and my country, but that doesn't mean I pick up and leave. It does mean I agitate for a better town, state and country and use whatever opportunities arise to make a point.

I don't need cops to tell me what to do and not do. And I don't need them to protect my property, because I don't have any. I go about my business, mind my business and try to be a good neighbor and citizen and sometimes that means telling the powers that be and their minions that that they are full of it.

In reality, there is not need for lots of moderators. If the people who put up the site can't manage to read the volume of conversations once a day and manage the "content" that appears in a site such as this... why did they start it in the first place?

If the purpose of the side is to exchange information about sailing and the discussions are about sailing why are sailors who contributed tens of thousands of words being alienated or over "moderated" as many are.

Houston, we got a problem.
defjef, you also have a valid point IMO.
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